Posts by Bryan

DaveT, I agree. Legal is not the same as just. Many harmful actions can be committed without much fear if the perpetrator has enough power or protection.

Quote from Kalosyni

when every color changes

In this context (DRN 2.749), Lucretius is just explaining that the atoms lack color, and he uses various examples of color shifting on a single object to help make that point.

Quote from Eikadistes

τὸν λάθρα τι κινοῦντα.

Quote from wbernys

τὸν λάθρῃ τι ποιοῦντα

"τὸν λάθρα τι κινοῦντα = the one secretly moving [i.e., doing] something”

vs

"τὸν λάθρῃ τι ποιοῦντα = the one doing something in secret”

Editors use both, they really have the same meaning.

Great point. As a bit of "an exception that proves the rule," we do have:

"[Epicurus] especially approved of Anaxagoras among the ancients, Diocles says ¬ even though in some respects [Epicurus] had opposed [Anaxagoras] – and also [Epicurus approved of] Archelaus, the teacher of Socrates."

^{μάλιστα δ᾽ ἀπεδέχετο, φησὶ Διοκλῆς, τῶν ἀρχαίων Ἀναξαγόραν ¬ καίτοι ἔν τισιν ἀντειρηκὼς αὐτῷ – καὶ Ἀρχέλαον, τὸν Σωκράτους διδάσκαλον Diogenes Laertius (_fl.c. 220 CE), 10.12 fin.}

I always have in mind this quote of Metrodorus (from Plutarch in Non Posse 1091 A):

"This very thing is the good: escaping the bad – because it is not possible for the good to be placed anywhere, when nothing painful or distressing is further withdrawing."

We can review Zeno of Citium's "Analogy of the Closing Hand" for contrast (from Academica 2.145):

1. An open hand represents φαντασία (an appearance)

2. Partially closed fingers represent συγκατάθεσις (assent that the appearance is true)

3. A closed fist represents κατάληψις (thorough comprehension),

4. Finally, the other hand enclosing the fist represents ἐπιστήμη (understanding) – true knowledge, possessed only by the wise.

This is contrasted (Academica 2.142) with "a different judgment exists for Epicurus – who thinks all judgment is established in the senses, in the acquaintance with things, and in pleasure"

Quote from Don

I think it's hiding in other forms within the texts.

Yes, Epicurus uses the verbal form of κατάληψις, for example at 10.78b he says:

^{"καὶ Τοῦτο Καταλαβεῖν τῇ διανοίᾳ ἔστιν ἁπλῶς εἶναι"}
"...and to thoroughly comprehend with the mind that this [reality] exists is absolutely possible."

-----------

10.125a. ^{"Οὐθὲν γάρ ἐστιν ἐν τῷ ζῆνδεινὸν τῷ κατειληφότι γνησίως τὸ μηδὲν ὑπάρχειν ἐν τῷ μὴ ζῆν δεινόν"}

"Nothing is terrible in living for the one who has thoroughly comprehended, in a genuine way, that nothing exists as terrible in not living."

---------

Philodemus, On Piety, 1.66A.1882-1911 ^{"καὶ καθάπερ κἀν τῷ δευτέρῳ καὶ τριακοστῷ, καὶ τῶν θεῶν Ἐναργείαι, Φησὶν, καταλαμβάνεσθαι τὸ ὄν"}

"and just as in the Second-and-Thirtieth [book 32 On Nature, Epicurus] says, the evident Realities of the gods are thoroughly comprehended as existing"

----------

Interestingly we have both prefixes in "προ-κατα-λαμβάνειν," which is best read as intensifying προ-λαμβάνειν (thus meaning "thoroughly anticipated" and not "comprehended")

VS 47 ^{"Προκατείλημμαί σε – ὦ Τύχη!"}

"I have thoroughly anticipated you – O Chance!"

---------

Quote from Don

Do you have the citations/references for those? I'm curious to check them out.

thank you for the question! I prefer when the answer rests in On Nature... but here we are On Lives only!

1.ὁ ᾠκειωμένος

^{10.37a. "ὅθεν, δὴ πᾶσι χρησίμης οὔσης τοῖς ᾠκειωμένοις φυσιολογίᾳ τῆς τοιαύτης ὁδοῦ..."}
...therefore, certainly since such a course is useful to all who are familiar with natural science...

2. ὁ προβεβηκώς
^{10.35b. "...καὶ Τοὺς προβεβηκότας δὲ ἱκανῶς ἐν τῇ τῶν ὅλων ἐπιβλέψει, τὸν τύπον τῆς ὅλης πραγματείας τὸν κατεστοιχειωμένον δεῖ μνημονεύειν..."}

...and Those who have advanced sufficiently in the observation of the whole, must remember the impression of the whole work that has been reduced [to the fundamentals]...

3. ὁ ἀποτελούμενος
^{10.83b. "...Ὅσοι δὲ μὴ παντελῶς τῶν ἀποτελουμένων εἰσίν: ἐκ τούτων καὶ κατὰ τὸν ἄνευ φθόγγων τρόπον..."}

...but Those who are not absolutely among those who are fully completing: from these things and in this way without [verbal] expressions...

4. ὁ τετελεσιουργημένος...
^{10.36b. ...ἐπεὶ καὶ, τῷ τετελεσιουργημένῳ, τοῦτο Κυριώτατον τοῦ παντὸς ἀκριβώματος γίνεται: τὸ ταῖς ἐπιβολαῖς ὀξέως δύνασθαι χρῆσθαι ἑκάστων πρὸς ἁπλᾶ στοιχειώματα καὶ φωνὰς συναγομένων...}

"...since, for the one who is accomplished, this is the most important Thing produced by total accuracy: to be able to quickly use [our] attentions with each thing referenced by simple component principles and statements..."

5. ὁ σοφός... οἶσθα!

I agree with you, Cassius. I will parenthetically add that Epicurus does use all of these terms below, and it is clear that they are "grades" or "rankings" of one's advancement, but I doubt the divisions were very formalized.

Don, I agree with you that is the correct interpretation. It seems the confusion comes from the the superlative as translated by Seneca in Letters to Lucilius, 92.25, which uses "beātissimum"

^{atquī haec Vōx in ipsā officīnā voluptātis audīta est "beātissimum" inquit "hunc et: hunc diem Agō" Epicūrus – cum Illum hinc ūrīnae Difficultās torquēret, hinc īnsānābilis exulcerātī Dolor ventris}

and yet this statement was heard in the very workshop of pleasure "most blessed" Epicurus said "is this indeed: this day I am living" – even while on one side difficulty of urination was tormenting him, and on the other side the incurable Pain of an ulcerated stomach

But I have not seen this in Greek, so I think the superlative can be ignored as just rhetorical from Seneca.

Quote from Cassius

Can even mental pain be totally eliminated / extinguished?

I'll start with this quote of Epicurus (Lives 10.135b):

"...therefore, study these things and the things akin to them (by yourself, day and night, and with one similar to yourself) and you will never be thoroughly disturbed, neither in wakefulness nor in a dream..."

It is true that here Epicurus uses "διαταράττειν (to thoroughly disturb)" instead of "ταράττειν (to disturb)"

We are all aware, but it is good to keep in mind that Epicurus distinguishes between bodily pain and mental pain.

Bodily pain can often be mitigated by a prudent lifestyle -- but only mental pain can be fully eliminated through a prudent application of philosophy.

I noticed that De Rerum Natura (2.434) speaks directly to the point of pain and pleasure being sensations. TauPhi I think this explains Epicurus' conflation of "sense as a faculty with sense as an activity."


^{Touch, indeed – Touch, by the holy powers of the gods,
exists as the body's sense: either when an external thing itself
slips in – or when what originates in the body harms –
or it pleases as it goes out through the generative acts of Venus,
or when the seeds in the body itself disturb from a collision and,
while stirred up among themselves, they confuse our sense...}

Thank you!

I did not realize that the island Smith lives on has a population of 15 to 30 people. Apparently, there is not even one store on the island. I wonder how he handles getting groceries.

I think the English word "weight" works. We know what it means, it is the heaviness in an object.

If certain trends in modern science do not use words in their normal and correct sense, I'd say that is their problem!

Just like we do not throw out "god" or "atom" from our vocabulary just because the authorities attach non-physical aspects to it -- so too we should not throw out "weight" from our vocabulary just because the authorities attach non-physical aspects to it!

Another idea in support of this argument is that atomic space (i.e., an indivisible magnitude of space) is just as important as atomic matter (i.e., an indivisible magnitude of matter).

"Therefore it is pleasing to those around Epicurus that all [primary particles] be moved with an equal speed through the partless [distances] – otherwise their atomic [distances], if divided, would not be atomic."

^{[Simplicius of Cilicia (fl. 520 CE), Commentary on Aristotle's Physics, 6.2]}

This is great in many ways! This is Lucian's longest surviving work, and having audio versions of relevant writings is very desirable. I think they will be more helpful for “getting the word out” in the long term than written text.

Different voices for the different people in the dialogue are necessary, and this does achieve that well -- and, of course, giving robot-Joshua the winning side of Lycinus is appropriate. We associate Joshua's voice with accuracy and coming from our view-point. Brilliant!

The voices do not catch the sarcastic tone very well (the robot may not even fully recognize when the text is sarcastic). This undercuts the comedy a little bit, but otherwise the voices are great. THANK YOU!!

"The beginning – and the greatest good – is prudence: therefore prudence exists as more valued than philosophy."
^{Lives 10.132b [Epicurus to Menoeceus]}

Quote from Cassius

Eventually move to Philodemus' "On Signs" / "On Methods of Inference

I'm not sure if it will be much help, but a few years ago I took the existing translation and tried to organize it, and also put all the opposing arguments in red. (link here).

My highest expectation, hope, and desire is for personal peace -- and a similar well-being of peace for my friends: what greater thing could be desired?

This is not a low expectation, but a very high one -- and one which our philosophy supports very well.

------------------------

However, from another angle, this may well entail "lowering your expectations" if they are insupportably high!

Not one of us can significantly change the mass flow -- of the ocean, of the air... etc.

Yes, you have made the most of what we have for this text! As we know, the context, in part, will certainly be Plato's view of triangular planes as the basis for the material world, which he explains in the Timaeus, and which our school rejected as having any any preeminence over any other shapes -- and, more significantly, our school denied that a 2-dimensional analysis of reality was fundamentally relevant -- given that the fundamental units have a 3-dimensional extension.

I recreated a bit of this here.

As Epicurus says "…....those triangles of his, from which he also entangles the remaining shapes. If he supposed that indivisible units [ἄτομα] exist, why did he not make any proof that bodies exist as indivisible? But if [his shapes are] not indivisible [and therefore can be divided further], what would one think the remaining [shapes that result from this further dividing] are composed of -- those which he puts together out of anything whatsoever? However, these [topics] will again, I suppose, be lengthened out; but for now, it is sufficient to say that it ridiculously occurred that this man [i.e., Plato] simultaneously called [his basic shapes] similar, while somehow fully depriving other [shapes as a basis]…"
^{[Epicurus, On Nature, Book 14, P.Herc. 1148 col. 5 (column 38)]}

Quote from Cassius

Sedley says flatly that "Katastematic pleasure is the absence of pain."

Both are correct, and it may be more helpful to highlight the similarities in the interpretations.

The "ste" in Katastematic is the same root that gives us "static" in the sense of "standing" or "still" -- and the "kata" is an intensifier! Etymologically the whole word means "characteristic of thoroughly standing"

As we have seen, Epicurus does literally say that "Katastematic pleasure is the absence of pain" at DL 10.136 where he says "Undisturbedness (ataraxía) and non-suffering (aponía) exist as established (katastēmatikái) pleasures, but joy and merriment are seen from movement through activity."

[Mental] painlessness/non-suffering (ἡ ἀπονία) is equated here with a katastematic (established) pleasure.

But this leaves plenty of room to also agree with Austin:

Quote from Cassius

katastematic pleasures are sensory pleasures that issue from confidence in one’s ability to satisfy one’s necessary desires and an awareness of one’s healthy psychological functioning

It is helpful to see painlessness/non-suffering as referring more to the mind/spirit and less so the body... but, of course, the close connection between the mind and body was never denied by our school in any way.

Consider Plutarch [Non Posse, 1089D]:

'See then, first of all, what they are doing: transferring either this "non-suffering" or "painlessness" or "stability" back and forth from the body to the soul – then back again from the [soul] into the [body]!'