Posts by Bryan

It seems our Apollodorus "the Epicurean" and the more famous Apollodorus "of Athens" are now considered two different people, but I need help figuring out why.

They have the same dates:
Apollodorus "of Athens" first came to Athens in 146 BC (in his early thirties) -- and Apollodorus "the Epicurean" died around 100 BC (as an old man).

Apollodorus "of Athens" was associated with Epicureans:
He was originally educated by the Stoic Scholarch Diogenes of Babylon -- but this Diogenes, as we know, was on friendly terms with Philōnídēs of Laodíkeia. (This puts our Philōnídēs, who did visit Athens while representing the Seleucids, in the same friend group as Apollodorus "of Athens")

They both wrote the same book:
Diogénēs Laë́rtios says "Apollodorus [the Epicurean] in his Chronology tells us that [Epíkouros] was a student of Nausiphánēs and Praxiphanes" -- but one of the main works of Apollodorus "of Athens" was his "Chronology"

Thank you, moving Apollodorus just one down -- under Dionysus of Lamptrai -- should work for now.

Also Leontion, an original member, should be closer to the top of the list, around Polyaenus, and just after her should be Colotes.

Quote from Kalosyni

Notable Epicureans, including Epicurus, Metrodorus,

Can we add Apollodorus to this list? I cannot figure out how.

I would say that the prolepseis are our 'mental sense.'

I agree we are talking about a faculty. But what is any sense or faculty without an object? Sight means little without reference to what one sees.

A pre-thought visual sense occurs when we visually focus on an external impression, and a pre-thought mental sense (a prolepsis) occurs when we mentally focus on an internal impression.

Quote from Cassius

A conclusion can be based in part on a prolepsis and still be wrong, Faculties are never true or false, but the conclusions we draw based on them can be.

Well said, and very important to keep in mind.

I think of a prolepsis as a ‘mental sense’ -- what comes to mind when you think of something.

Just as you use your eyes to look at a tree, you use this mental sense to begin thinking about a tree.

You can use your eyes to look at a statue of a unicorn -- and you have an anticipation in your mind of what a unicorn should look like.

To contrast Cicero's use of "belief" above (in Latin, "opinio"), we have:

"[Epíkouros] himself called belief 'the sacred illness.'"

^{(ὁ αὐτὸς [ Ἐπίκουρος] τὴν οἴησιν "ἱερὰν νόσον" ἔλεγεν, Fragment 195 from the Florilegium Monacense)}

Which seems to mean that holding to opinions without evidence is harmful -- even though those opinions are widely respected.

Here is a list of words used by Epikouros that are all based on the same verb which prolepsis is built upon (λαμβάνω).

Prolepsis List 1.pdf

Oxford does seem to say it was "published," at least internally at Oxford, but apparently it was not issued to the public. Obbink is out of academia for the foreseeable future, and Oxford is unlikely to publish any more of his work.

I am not sure if we have shared this quote as well, but wanted to throw it in to make sure. Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, 7.13.2-4 (Rackham trans):

"This is why everybody thinks that the happy life must be a pleasant life, and regards pleasure as a necessary ingredient of happiness; and with good reason, since no impeded activity is perfect, whereas Happiness is essentially perfect; so that the happy man requires in addition the goods of the body, external goods and the gifts of fortune, in order that his activity may not be impeded through lack of them. Consequently those who say that, if a man be good, he will be happy even when on the rack, or when fallen into the direst misfortune, are intentionally or unintentionally talking nonsense. But because Happiness requires the gifts of fortune in addition, some people think that it is the same thing as good fortune; but this is not so, since even good fortune itself when excessive is an impediment to activity, and perhaps indeed no longer deserves to be called good fortune, since good fortune can only be defined in relation to Happiness."

Yes, thank you. That makes sense. At the very least, the farther north he is in Melítē, the closer he is to the Garden.

Thank you for the illuminating footnote: "While “Mýs” is typically translated as “Mouse” (assumed to be a diminutive) it could equally refer to his region of origin, perhaps Mysia. Most slaves in ancient Greece were foreigners who had been captured, sold, or imprisoned."

It seems Mysia was in the area of Lampsacus and Cyzicus (we know Epikouros sent letters to friends in Cyzicus, at least, P.Herc. 1418, col. 7).

According to Strabo (Geography, 13.1.19), Epikouros associated with "the most distinguished of those in this city [Lampsacus]" so maybe he did pick up Mýs around that time and location.

I wanted to get your impression of this little map, Don, where I added "garden" and "house." It is oversimplified, (and his house was just in that area, certainly not that large) but I would be grateful for any comments you have.

I agree with your line of thinking TauPhi, but Cicero does seem supported by others in his representation:

Plutarch, Non Posse, 1099D:

"Not even one of us would believe Epíkouros that – while dying amid the greatest pains and illnesses – he was counterbalancing with the memory of pleasures formerly fully enjoyed. Someone would more likely perceive the representation of his appearance in the [ocean's] disturbed depth and surge than a memory of pleasure smiling gently amid such throbbing and bodily torment!"

We also have Seneca, Letters to Lucilius, 92.25:

"Does it not seem equally unbelievable that someone placed in the greatest torments should say 'I am blessed'? and yet this statement was heard in the very workshop of pleasure 'most blessed' Epíkouros said 'is this indeed: this day I am living' – even while on one side difficulty of urination was tormenting him, and on the other side the incurable pain of an ulcerated stomach."

And (although I shared this recently) Marcus Aurelius , Meditations, 9.41, quoting Epíkouros: "In my illness, my conversations were not about the feelings of my little body ¬ nor was I chatting about such things to those who visited but, while studying nature, I continued with the prior topics, even while in that very state, [studying] how the mind – although participating in such movements [occurring] within my little bit of flesh – remains untroubled, while preserving its own good."

I agree Don, I think both blessedness (i.e., contentment) and indestructibility are necessary qualities of gods. These qualities serve as examples for us -- but our limits in both regards are fully acknowledged, per Philódēmos:

"…the intimacy arising from necessities, in regards to association, gives the emotions over to [that intimacy]: for maintaining intimacy, while existing [together], is not possible without any mixture [of emotions]. Indeed, certainly for us, who are weak and have further need for the necessary things of friendship…"

_{…χρειωδῶν ἡ συμφυλία π[ρὸς τὴν] συνανα[σ]τροφὴν αὐτῆι τὰ πάθη παρ[αδί]δωσιν. οὐ γὰρ δυνατὸν ἔχειν τὴν συμφυλίαν ἄνε[υ] πάσης ἐπιμειξίας ὄντας. ἀμέλει δὲ κ(αὶ) ἐφ' ἡ̣μῶν τῶν ἀ̣σθενῶν κ(αὶ) πρ(οσ)δεγομένων πρ[ὸς τ]ὰ [χρ]ε̣ι̣ώδη τ[ῆς] φιλίας
Philodemus, On The Gods, Book 3, P.Herc. 152, fr. 9 (87)}

Philódēmos directly connects human weakness with our need for friendship. While discussing the importance of mutual friendship / intimacy (ἡ συμφυλία) he says that generosity is necessary.

I am enjoying the notebook!

Quote from DaveT

four cardinal principals

Quote from Don

Tetrapharmakos

Yes, here is Tsouna on that section:

"The expression τὰ τέτταρα refers to the Fourfold Remedy. We suggest that it should be distinguished from τὰ κυριώτατα (1. 8). τὰ τέτταρα are precisely four principles originally expressed by Epicurus and later constituting the Fourfold Remedy. On the other hand, the term κυριώτατα in its technical sense is intended to cover all the fundamental principles pertaining to a certain subject and enabling the Epicurean student to confront particular problems and to solve them on his own."

Hello Robert, the book can be purchased here:
On Choices and Avoidances – Bibliopolis – Edizioni di Filosofia e Scienze

Most of it is commentary and the translation only runs a few pages:

"It is fair that we speak against the rest of people who have a contrary opinion about what has been said, who state that we accomplish actions successfully without the help of philosophy. For we know that the very copies in which they are openly abusing us are easily available. But if we set side by side some ... And they claim that in truth no judgement takes precedence over any other, being persuaded that the great affection of the soul occurs as a result of pain and that thus we accomplish our choices and avoidances by observing both [bodily and mental pain]. For it is not possible that the joys arise in us in the same way and all together, in accordance with some expectation ... and some people denied that it is possible to know anything. And, further, they added that if nothing is present on account of which one should make an immediate choice, then one should not choose immediately. Some other people, having selected the affections of the soul as the moral ends and as not in need of additional judgement based on further criteria, granted to everybody unchallengeable authority to take pleasure in whatever they cared to name and to do whatever contributed to it. And yet others held the doctrine that what we call grief or joy are totally empty notions because of the manifest indeterminacy of things ...

(It is just as well that we know both that the good is not only limited in magnitude but also is easy to attain) and that the bad not only has limits in magnitude and time, but also is easy to bear; for otherwise it would be of no use that the good should be limited but impossible or difficult for us to attain, or that the bad should be limited but unbearable through its long duration. For what results from these points of knowledge is that one seeks after nothing which does not naturally remove pain—and such are most of the matters which people take a serious interest in—and that one does not avoid what does not prevent one from having pleasure—such as we should consider most matters of improvement to be. Again ... Having looked into those matters, one should also consider the differences among desires, both with regard to the pleasures and with regard to their causes. For it is also on account of the failure to distinguish between them that important errors occur through them with respect to choices and avoidances. For men suffer the worst evils for the sake of the most alien desires which they take to be the most necessary — I mean desires for sovereignty and brilliant reputation and great wealth and suchlike luxuries and other similar things. Again, they neglect the most necessary appetites as if they were the most alien to nature ... of natural pleasures some are necessary, others not necessary; and of the former ones themselves some are necessary for life, others for the health of the body, others for living happily, according to the different causes and not all taken together. And we called different causes those causes some of which, it seems, produce terrible storms while others do not, some occur prematurely due to certain defects, others happen because of the perceptions of joy, some are produced by habits whereas others are produced independently from them, some occur having originated from ourselves while others arise because of external factors, or because things which became desirable by our lack of them inflicted a sort of wound by the very thought of them. And some…

...because the most blessed beings are far from having supreme power over them for ever. It is easy, then, to see that such beliefs are the causes of innumerable failures. For these men place themselves in such a situation so as not to take advice from anybody about anything at all, in the belief that nothing depends on man, but everything is controlled by the god.

Then, at any rate they inevitably fall into the evils which the lack of forethought tends to inflict upon men ... It must be indicated that ... they meet with irreparable misfortunes, and sometimes they cast their own cities into evils as well. And if they are not compelled by the plausibility of things, or indeed if the omens do not agree by sheer chance with what ought to happen, as they are held back and they procrastinate because of their apprehension to do nothing against the will of the gods, they fail to act. And because of the troubles which cannot be surpassed, they neglect...

…by Zeus, many and great evils concerning many matters occur as a result of the worthless assumptions of mindless men and are avoided as a result of the right concepts; and, as it is also suggested in those discussions, they consider some matters instead of others as the most important. Besides, men think that what occurs through the agency of the gods and of the other powers will perpetually cause to the dead evils by far greater than the goods which it will bring to the living in their lifetime. And for this reason...

…by them to the gods. Therefore, they lament if they are afflicted by things which resemble evils, both the evils deriving from ingratitude towards men and the fatherland, and also the evils resulting from superstition, i.e. because they take god to be the cause of both death and life —though, by Zeus, the other evils are very great. And because of the sorrow that weighs upon them on account of their death, they become irascible and hard to please and ill-tempered ...

And therefore, it is also obvious that, aside from those misadventures, they are totally worthless people. This is said because of what has been stated about the four cardinal principles, for the thesis that the understanding and the memorisation of the cardinal tenets contribute greatly to actual choices and avoidances is not equal to claiming that some choices and avoidances are traced back to the states of tranquillity concerning them [sc. the cardinal tenets] —as some have clumsily interpreted it—but to claiming that they [sc. the choices and avoidances] are accomplished successfully when we measure them by the ends laid down by nature...

…clearly, since they do not hold the assumptions which we value. The many are rather led to right conduct by the laws which threaten with death, and with punishments coming from the gods, and with pains which are considered intolerable, and with the privation of some things which are supposedly hard to procure. This is the case partly on account of what was said at the beginning, partly because these things threaten men who are foolish and who cannot be persuaded by the true precepts; and the only thing that is achieved through them [sc. the laws] is deterrence for a short period of time. Besides, it is evident that the assumptions...

…these things were shown to provide help in study. Above all, he establishes the principles of philosophy, by which alone it is possible to act rightly. And it is clear that he also establishes the congenital ends, which yield the most conspicuous evidence and by which the calculations concerning choices and avoidances are performed. Besides, one must unfailingly draw the moral arguments regarding both choices and avoidances from the study of nature in order that they should be complete — if nothing else, the principle that nothing is produced without a cause and that ... does not change...

…it is impossible for one to live pleasurably without living prudently and honourably and justly, and also without living courageously and temperately and magnanimously, and without making friends and without being philanthropic, and in general without having all the other virtues. For the greatest errors in choices and avoidances occur when some men perform each action while holding the opposite views, and thereby while being constrained by evils. On the other hand, one should not quibble when talking about the teaching of the elements on account of the mutual entailment and necessary sequence of some things to some others. For sometimes ... the desires…

…we advise ... further in actions ... It is necessary to bear in mind also that a further factor which contributes to success is a thorough understanding of individual sources of external goods and how they stand in relation to us —for example, luxury and beauty and wealth, generally speaking, and marriage and the like—, but its contribution is small in comparison with the cardinal tenets which we mentioned. For which reason these have been placed also at the head of the Principal Doctrines. Thus, it might even be said that...

…they say thoughtlessly: «It is impossible for anyone to learn beforehand on what day one might arrive (at the end of one's life), either in old age or dying before reaching old age; indeed, no one knows the exact truth. Whence, we do not reflect continuously on the fact that we will die in the same way as we do when death is clearly known to be coming soon. For there is some time left. And because the end of our life is hard to determine, sometimes we feel perhaps inclined to extend it as much as possible, while other times we tend to be able to quit life immediately afterwards [sc. immediately after we realise that death will be coming soon]». Thus, in an unseemly way, some people ...

... betray the only things which can provide pleasures and endure pains in vain. And they abandon philosophy entirely, each of them saying: «Shall I go now into endless toils and then pass away in the middle of them?» And they refuse to impart benefits of any kind on the grounds that this ought to be done by the immortals or by those who expect to receive gratitude in return. Again, they are ungrateful to everyone and they always exclaim with derision: «Don't give anything to the dead!» And indifferent towards all things…

…exclaiming: «Pray, do I not live decently and justly? Or do I not live in accordance with the laws applying to men? Then, when I shall die I shall be immortal». And they are cut off from everything by means of which they would have a better life, exactly like men who are sentenced to death. What is more, they neglect what contributes to health, adding: «How many evils shall I endure if I live luxuriously for three seasons?» And they are frightened to death by all diseases. And on account of projecting everlasting evils onto the time when they are dead, they are afflicted by immeasurable troubles ... Thus, carried away by this line of thought and struck against expectation by something sudden, they are entirely beside themselves. But before that, they deprive themselves of any enjoyment, so that the things necessary to life will last them. And they live putting everything off in the belief that it will be possible for them to partake of some goods later on. And thereafter, they are unbalanced throughout their lives. And they dedicate themselves to many labours...

…that they did contrive and will contrive new solutions, so as to ward off frightening things more speedily on every occasion which might turn out this way until they die. And for fear that, because of the length of time involved, they might ever lack the necessary things, they become reluctant to distribute any benefits and they withhold returning the benefits which they have received. And when they lose money, they suffer the pains of hell. Besides, they engage in wrath and hatred which do not befit humans, and they become arrogant in their announcements, commands or threats. Also, they lack pity and sympathy towards their kindred...

…nor does he desire to amass much money. And he does well in the present as is not illogical, but having closely examined the things which yield fruit in return for his labours, he works with more equanimity —unless he works for the sake of friends. And rather using all his time sparingly, he relies on his own capacities alone whenever there is need to do so. And from boyhood onwards, he never breaks off from the anchorages of philosophy. And feeling confidence during his own lifetime, even when this is very long, he also distributes all that remains [sc. his property], that only left remaining to him which is necessary for life itself...

…since he came to his death. And avoiding a careless death, he is industrious because of the consequent doctrine based on the concept of the preservation of one's goods. And since he does not cut short the long extent of his life, he always begins new activities and friendly attachments. And he attends to his own property as to how to administer it. Also, he reflects on former events in the belief that they may concern him in the future. And he treats with much care as many people as he can, and he is thankful to those who treated him kindly, in particular because he hopes that he will share in some goods with them or that he will receive some benefit by these same people again in the future...

…during the long duration of his life. And when he encounters whatever can lead to an improvement, he spares no effort in the hope of surviving for a while. Indeed, he takes the greatest care of his health. And feeling confidence against illness and death, he endures with strength the therapies that can remove them."

Quote from Don

Oh, this looks promising?

http://www.epicuros.gr/pages/en/Tempe…us_Porphyry.pdf

This was written by Elias Tempelis (Professor of Philosophy at the Hellenic Naval Academy) to accompany his presentation for the 9th Panhellenic Symposium of Epicurean Philosophy.

His interpretation also excludes the quote Elli rejects, but he argues that most of the letter contains quotes from our school (with Porphyry only parenthetically adding his objectionable content). So Tempelis represents the most "optimistic" interpretation. I am inclined to agree.

Thank you for sharing this, Don. I do not think we discussed it.

Great episode! Accepting the belief that evil exists as a disembodied force leaves one under the control of those who decide how to wield it.

Exploring alternate paths in Roman history -- and how they would have redefined who the “bad guys” were -- is a good way to illustrate the point. Thank you!

Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, 9.41:

Epíkouros says that "in my illness, my conversations were not about the feelings of my little body, nor was I chatting about such things to those who visited, but, while studying nature, I continued with the prior topics, even while in that very state, studying how the mind (although participating in such movements occurring within my little bit of flesh) remains untroubled, while preserving its own good. Nor did I surrender power to the doctors to act important as if they were accomplishing something – instead, my lifestyle was being led well and correctly."

Quote from Rolf

When I'm in a "neutral state" - not sick, injured, etc. - and I focus on my body's senses, I pretty much always notice some kind of ache, tenseness, stomach pain, itchiness, or some other uncomfortable feeling that I'm generally able to ignore when I'm not not fixating on it.

I think this is typically the case for most people. For me, "clearing the mind" is pleasant before sleep, but when I am awake and ready, then "mind-clearing meditation" feels like intellectual asceticism and it is at this point I will notice the extra sensations you mention.

Happily, Epikouros recommends an active and applied mind, he says:

"I recommend continuous activity in physics and pacify myself particularly with such a life."
(D.L. 10.37a)

----------

Epikouros fully acknowledged that all pleasures are based in active pleasures, but he identified the pleasure of being satisfied (i.e., "established pleasures") as the natural goal of living things.

Unlike ascetics, we do not deny the body -- and unlike the average man, we do not deny having reached full pleasure when we are satisfied.

"Eating" is pleasurable, but a life dedicated to "eating" is sad and unhealthy -- and so for the rest of the active pleasures. If we reach the point of satisfaction and wonder what else our body needs, we are missing the point. If we form a lifestyle focused on satisfying our physical pleasures, our intellectual abilities will suffer.

But bodily satisfaction is the beginning of the intellectual life -- and once this is achieved, then here it is healthy to settle in, and consume and consume (philosophy and science) as a lifestyle.