Posts by Don

I don't know how I missed this one:

Emily Austin on Stoicism's Rival

A discussion on the Epicurean life.

stoameditation.com

Dr. Austin's conversation with the Stoic podcast!

One last thought for now, with the caveat that I only flirted with Stoicism for a short time before finding Epicurus, so I'm not steeped in the philosophy.

It seems to me that Stoics want to say "In situation A, one will always do X."

The paradigm of virtue ethics seems to want absolutes: ex., Lying is *always* wrong.

Epicureanism seems more nuanced. Personal responsibility for one's choices and actions is front and center in Epicurus's philosophy, but virtuous, noble, and just actions and choices are governed by each individual situation. There is no "If A, then X" formula to apply. It's more keeping one's eye on the end/goal/"highest good" which is pleasure. What choices will lead to a pleasurable life?

Let's workshop some "Epicurean Handbook" subtitles... I'll start...

• Feel, Think, Thrive
• How to Listen to Your Feelings to Make Better Choices
• Pleasure is not a Four-Letter Word
• How Pleasure Points the Way

Those are just a few off the top of my head.

I would be interested to see that handbook.

Another thought that I had was to bring up Emily Austin's article:

Are the Modern Stoics Really Epicureans? | History News Network

My go to characteristics for Epicurus are the forked beard with the definite furrow in the middle and the vertical furrow between his eyebrows. Lots of vertical furrows come to think about it

Quote from Cassius

Here is the book cover we are talking about (which appears to me to be Hermarchus based largely on the eyes)

Agreed. Definitely doesn't remind me of Epicurus.

I just realized my post on another thread directly addresses this threads topic:

Post

RE: Quotes from Karl Krohn's dissertation "Der Epikureer Hermarchos"

The next citation is to Philodemus On Anger, pherc. 182, col. 43, lines 16-23:

https://papyri.info/dclp/62390

..., ὥστε καὶ τοῦτον

ἀσθενῆ ποιεῖν, οὐ παρενο-

χλήσει, καθάπερ ἐν[ί]οις, οἳ

πάνδεινον ἡγήσαντο, ταῖς

20 Κυρίαις Δόξαις ἀντιγρά-

φοντες, εἰ τετόλμηκέ τις

ἐν ἀσθενείαι λέγειν ὀ̣ργὴν

καὶ χάριτα καὶ πᾶν τὸ τοι-

οῦτον,...

Don

May 16, 2023 at 7:50 AM

From Philodemus On Anger.

The next citation is to Philodemus On Anger, pherc. 182, col. 43, lines 16-23:

DCLP/Trismegistos 62390 = LDAB 3555

..., ὥστε καὶ τοῦτον

ἀσθενῆ ποιεῖν, οὐ παρενο-

χλήσει, καθάπερ ἐν[ί]οις, οἳ

πάνδεινον ἡγήσαντο, ταῖς

20 Κυρίαις Δόξαις ἀντιγρά-

φοντες, εἰ τετόλμηκέ τις

ἐν ἀσθενείαι λέγειν ὀ̣ργὴν

καὶ χάριτα καὶ πᾶν τὸ τοι-

οῦτον,...

Referring back to fr.28 referred to in post # 3 above, out doesn't seem to say what Krohn implies that it says. The first citation on p.28 is to Philodemus, pherc.1005, column 8, lines 18-19.

The book states :

εξέλεξεν και δε εκ των επιγεγραμμενων Κύριων δοκών ενιας

"And so chose some from the writings of the Principal Doctrines (Κύριων δοκών)

I don't see any references to the PDs in the actual papyrus.

Here's what that papyrus has :

DCLP/Trismegistos 62437 = LDAB 3610

column 11

P.Herc. 1005 col. 8th

Sketched 1803-1806 by Giuseppe Casanova

Engraved 1844-1861 by Vincenzo Corazza

[ ⁇ -ca.?- ⁇ ἐρχόμενον ἀκριβεί-]

αι πρ 罗 [ς τ 斯 τणν ἀνδρणν] ,

[πε] ρ πολλणν 재γ [εCSσ] θαι [τἀ-]

κε 利 [ί] νοις ἀρέֹ [σ] κοντ ', [ἐκ] τ行 ς ἀ [ρ-]

5 χῆς 玛ποψί [α] ν τιν 재 [λ] α 信μβά-

ν [ει] ν ⁇ ς περί τινων ἐπι-

στολ行行ν 利 κα 红 τῆς [Πρքς Πυ-]

θ行οκλέα περ 间 μ [ε] τεώρων

ἐπιτομῆς κα 空 τοῦ Περ ἀ-

10 ρ С [ετ] 行 [ν], κα 布 τ ν ε 利ς Μητρό-

δωρον ἀναφερομένων

红ποθηκῶν κα 红 τणν Μαρ-

τυριῶν κα 红 μ λλον [δ] ⁇ ֹ

τοῦ Πρքς τքν Πλάτωνοֹς

15 Γοργίαν δευτέρου, κα 空 τणν

ες Πολύαινον τοῦ Πρքς

τοքς 재ήτορας κα κα κ α το ῦ Περ 空

σελήνης κα 红 τणν ε 罗ς 长ρ く-

μαρχον · ἐξέλεξεν δ ⁇ κα 空

20 [ 行 行 行 行 行 行 行 行] γεγραμένω [ν]

And here's the clunky translation I gleaned from Les Epicuriens in French, trying to compare with the Greek...

[11] [However, Zeno had good reason to ? consider, in connection with many [writings of our school] that a doubt hung over the opinions which were those of our great men at the origins [of the Garden] thus [he designated for Epicurus] certain letters, the summary on celestial phenomena To Pythocles (Πρքς Πυ]θ行οκλέα περ 间 μ 利[ε]τεώρων ἐπιτομῆς) and On The Virtues (Περ ἀρ 利[ετ]ῶ 行[ν] (Footnote in book: These are the works of Epicurus, although his name is not mentioned and the last title is not otherwise attested.), as well as those writings attributed to Metrodorus which are The Rules of Conduct, the Testimonies and, more certainly, the second book of Against Plato's "Gorgias"; the books Against the Rhetoricians and The Moon attributed to Polyaenus, and those attributed to Hermarchus. Furthermore, he made a selection precisely [missing 1 word] [from the] writings ...

I'm still working on the second citation in the book. Stay tuned...

#Polyaenus

Welcome, aalamad !

Quote from Cassius

Referring back again to the clip in post 5 above --

I found another reference I came across long ago. Not sure I can find the URL for this, but take a look. This looks to me to be the one we are discussing, and it's identified here as a Epicurus (which seems to me what I would think too). I will see if I can find a URL or another reference.

That one has the characteristic forked beard that Epicurus has.

Quote from Cassius

Thank you Martin!

Do we know who is referred to here as challenging the authorship?

It looks like fragment 28 is on pages 27-29 of the book, noting Diogenes Laertius and Philodemus, and refers, after a section in Greek, to PD31 to PD40.

I can try to tackle the Greek later.

And the prosciutto is great!!

I had never seen that before, but I could easily accept the Epicurean & epicurean implications of that, both pigs and food.

Thanks for these, Godfrey !!

I'll have to see if we have the book in the library and scan them there.

That Hermarchus seems to coincide with this one with its base:

Post

RE: The Early Epicureans v1.0 [video]

epicureanfriends.com/wcf/attachment/3702/

The base of this statue reads Ἕρμαρχoς Hermarchos and is the image on the book cover to the left.

Don

May 3, 2023 at 9:36 PM

Quote from Cassius

Koerte: A. Koerte. Metrodori Epicurei Fragmenta, Leipzig, 1890

Metrodori Epicurei Fragmenta collegit scriptoris incerti Epicurei Commentarium moralem, subiecit Alfredus Koerte : Metrodorus, of Lampsacus, d. 277 B.C : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

26

archive.org

I find it interesting that the phrase is often translated as "Live unknown" as if the imperative verb is "Live!". But the verb here is λάθε:

Quote from Quora

Linguistically, the phrase λαθε βιωσας uses the verb λανθανω, which I think is unique to Ancient Greek: it roughly means ‘to escape the notice of…’ takes the accusative of the person whose attention you avoid and the participle of the action you do without the person noticing. Complicated! The phrase literally means “Escape the notice [of everyone?] having lived your life”.

λαθε= inflection of λᾰνθᾰ́νω (lanthánō):

second-person singular aorist active imperative

It's also a singular imperative. It's addressed to one person.

A. (active) to escape notice

1. (transitive) escape a person's notice

2. (transitive) to do [+participle or rarely infinitive = something] without being noticed [+accusative = by someone]

So, using 2 it literally does go something like the Quora answer gives.

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, λανθάνω

In light of all that, is it a commentary having something to do about being concerned with what happens *after* one's death?

Quote from Hellenistic Greek

the aorist infinitive does not express progressive aspect. It presents the action expressed by the verb as a complete unit with a beginning and end.

Quote from Nate

To be fair, Hedonists (albeit Cyrenaics, or Epicureans, or others) have always been accused of excess by their philosophical and religious opponents.

And it appears it wasn't even just philosophical opponents. It appears that the "Epicurean" as cook or gourmand was even a familiar trope in New Comedy. There are "contemporary or near-contemporary [to the life of Epicurus] depictions of Epicureans, considering at length the buffoonish chef, a stock character in the New Comedy often depicted as an Epicurean to lambaste sensual pleasure and lack of self-control." Source

Ancient Greek comedy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here's the entry from the Oxford English Dictionary with its historical citations:

Noun

A person devoted to sensual pleasure, esp. to eating and drinking; a hedonist; a glutton. In later use also: a person who cultivates a refined taste for, or takes a particular pleasure in, fine food and drink; an epicure. In early use chiefly depreciative.

a1450 (▸c1435) J. Lydgate Life SS. Edmund & Fremund (Harl.) l. 225 in C. Horstmann Altengl. Legenden (1881) 2nd Ser. 381 (MED) Fals lust..of epicuriens.

a1475 (▸?a1430) J. Lydgate tr. G. Deguileville Pilgrimage Life Man (Vitell.) l. 12786 ‘I wolde se What Epicuriens sholde be.’..‘That perfyt ffelycyte Ys, that a man lyk hys delyt, ffolwe alway hys appetyt.’

a1572 J. Knox Hist. Reformation Scotl. (1587) 188 Simon Preaston..a right Epicurian.

a1652 J. Smith Select Disc. (1660) i. iii. 21 Those poor brutish Epicureans that have nothing but the meer husks of fleshly pleasure to feed themselves with.

1728 S. Whatley tr. J. Lenfant Hist. Council of Constance I. 577 Jerome was such an Epicurean in his Prison, that he spent his whole Time in Drunkenness and Gluttony.

1825 W. Scott Talisman x, in Tales Crusaders III. 250 He was a voluptuary and an epicurean.

1855 J. L. Motley Rise Dutch Republic I. ii. i. 256 A horde of lazy epicureans, telling beads and indulging themselves in luxurious vice.

1935 Washington Post 16 Oct. 5 There are a few real epicureans of the table.

2008 National Jeweler 1 Oct. 18 It [sc. chocolate] has become a bonbon for adults, to be savored by epicureans.

Adjective:

Originally: devoted to the pursuit of pleasure; (hence) hedonistic, gluttonous. Now chiefly: designating a person who takes a particular pleasure in fine food and drink; characteristic of, or suitable for, such a person; gourmet. Cf. epicure n. 2.

1583 W. Chauncie tr. P. Viret Worlde Possessed with Deuils ii. sig. F.vi Their Epicurian life [Fr. leur vie Epicurienne], giuen ouer to al filthinesse and enormitie.

1612 C. Demetrius tr. Most True Relation Earth-quake sig. B2v All at their plenteous and Epicurean voluptuous tables, fall to drinking, swilling, and carowsing deepe healths.

a1616 W. Shakespeare Antony & Cleopatra (1623) ii. i. 24 Epicurean Cookes, Sharpen with cloylesse sawce his Appetite.

1641 J. Milton Of Reformation 84 Warming their Palace Kitchins, and from thence their unctuous, and epicurean paunches.

1656 A. Cowley Misc. 37 in Poems Voluptuous, and Wise with all, Epicuraean Animal!

1750 Student 1 No. 6. 214 I'll be temperate, and stoutly withstand all the allurements of delicious fare, and the seducements of epicurean companions.

1765 Parasite II. xvii. 204 He dined at the Twopence Halfpenny Ordinary in Newgate Street (which we cannot suppose to have been a very Epicurean Meal).

1826 Monitor (Sydney) 15 Dec. 245/3 He who has fed upon corn for six-months, can eat a ‘fat cake’, with a true epicurean relish.

1850 T. Carlyle Latter-day Pamphlets vi. 15 No longer an earnest Nation, but a light, sceptical epicurean one.

1856 H. Penciller Rural Life in Amer. viii. 222 An epicurean fare we lived on, too.

1934 G. Ross Tips on Tables 37 An entree to delight any epicurean soul.

1954 Life 1 Feb. 44/2 Fancy preparing an epicurean feast so fast!

2008 IPA Rev. (Austral.) July 11/2 Slow food is not just an epicurean delight—it is a political and ideological movement.

Quote from Nate

Christianity.

It goes back further than that. Dr. Gordon's book documents the idea back to or shortly after Epicurus's own lifetime

Quote from Little Rocker

Gotta get in early with the kids before they learn any different, I suppose.

Μήτε νέος...μήτε γέρων...

"Neither must one who is young delay in loving and pursuing wisdom; nor should one who is old grow weary of loving and pursuing wisdom; because it is neither out of season nor untimely for the health of the psykhē."