Posts by Don

LOL I keep wanting to respond to the questions myself!

PS. Just to say explicitly: That just goes to the thoughtfulness of the questions.

Quote from Cassius

Also: VS11. For most men rest is stagnation, and activity is madness.

I wonder if the word translated as "stagnation" there is relevant?

VS11

τῶν πλείστων ἀνθρώπων τὸ μὲν ἡσυχάζον ναρκᾷ, τὸ δὲ κινούμενον λυττᾷ.

My translation is:

For the majority of people, to be at rest is to be bored stiff; but to be active is to be raving like a rabid dog.

ἡσυχάζω I. to be still, keep quiet, be at rest

νάρκη I. numbness, deadness, Lat. torpor

So, fwiw the letter doesn't use the same word as VS11, but I think Cassius may be onto something.

I'm taking a closer look at κειμένας (now that I'm *consciously* aware of its existence!) Thinking out loud and working on a draft of my revision ...

There is the embedded prepositional phrase ἐν ἀπολαύσει "in enjoying; in taking pleasure; in enjoyment"

The whole phrase τὰς ἐν ἀπολαύσει κειμένας could be interpreted as something like "the κειμένας in enjoying; the κειμένας in enjoyment" So, the meaning hinges on κειμένας

I see EpicurusWiki translates that as "we do not mean the pleasure of debauchery or sensuality,"

Bailey has "When, therefore, we maintain that pleasure is the end, we do not mean the pleasures of profligates and those that consist in sensuality,"

I don't see where they're getting "sensuality"

κειμένας is the feminine accusative plural of κείμενος (because of the fem. acc. pl. definite article τὰς in the phrase). κείμενος is the present middle participle of κεῖμαι (...-ing)

As linked above for κεῖμαι, LSJ has (changing the verbs to participles with -ing)

- lying down to rest, reposing; lying idle; lying still

- lying sick or wounded (Note: This one doesn't seem to fit)

- lying dead; lying buried; freq. of a corpse

- being laid up, in store, of goods, property

For discussion purposes, I'm going to try replacing those participles literally in our phrase. So, Epicurueans, per Epicurus, when they say pleasure, "they don't say the pleasures of the prodigal nor..."

- the lying down to rest or sleep, reposing, in enjoyment

- the lying idle in enjoyment

- the lying dead in enjoyment

- the being laid up, in store, of goods, property, in enjoyment

I don't get "sensuality" from any of that nor from the LSJ's extensive definitions. The one I find most intriguing is "the lying buried in enjoyment." Is this a reference to those who take pleasure in imagining a pleasure in the afterlife? Is that also a potential crack at the Cyrenaics who called "calm" like being dead?

I'm going to use Saint-Andre's translation to provide context around that phrase:

Quote from Epicurus' Letter to Menoikeus via Saint-Andre (emphasis added)

So when we say that pleasure is the goal, we do not mean the pleasures of decadent people or [the enjoyment of sleep], as is believed by those who are ignorant or who don't understand us or who are ill-disposed to us, but to be free from bodily pain and mental disturbance.

He does bring up rivals and enemies who are ignorant, don't understand, and are ill-disposed to the Epicurean school. My uncontroversial contention would be that those two phrases - τὰς τῶν ἀσώτων ἡδονὰς and τὰς ἐν ἀπολαύσει κειμένας - are direct references to the positions of those rivals and enemies. That "being dead" connotation continues to intrigue me. I'm not saying that's correct - due to my rudimentary Greek and that no one else seems to pick up on it. However, if we can see translations as diverse as "sensuality" and "the enjoyment of sleep," I'm going to throw my hat in the ring with a "being dead" connotation! However, the last possibility of laying up a lot of goods and property has some potential, too.

Thanks again, Kalosyni , for jump-starting this discussion!!

Yes.

Short response: By Zeus, Kalosyni !! Saint-Andre is correct!! Thanks for picking up on that.

Longer response: I appear to have become so interested in τὰς τῶν ἀσώτων ἡδονὰς that I completely overlooked καὶ τὰς ἐν ἀπολαύσει κειμένας in 131.

τὰς τῶν ἀσώτων ἡδονὰς is the "pleasures of the prodigal." I admit I got so caught up in the implications of ἀσώτων that I *missed* that whole next phrase. Egads! Mea maxima culpa! I'll need to upload a new version of my translation.

καὶ τὰς ἐν ἀπολαύσει κειμένας:

ἀπολαύσει

I. act of enjoying, fruition

II. result of enjoying, pleasure,

κειμένας < κεῖμαι

• to lie, lie outstretched
  • to lie asleep, repose, lie idle, lie still
  • to lie sick or wounded, lie in misery
  • to lie dead
  • to lie neglected, uncared for, unburied
  • (of wrestlers) to have a fall

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, κεῖμαι

So, that's all a bit embarrassing, but I greatly appreciate your finding that.

If there s Chat feature in the interface for people to submit questions during the program?

Sign me up too please.

I don't think this has been shared before.

Quote from Nate

Great use of Firefly, Don !

Browncoats forever!

One thing to keep in mind in this thread is that people were *really* literally dependent on family and friends in ancient Greece. There was little or no government support in the sense of assistance.

Later, "In the Roman Empire, the first emperor Augustus provided the Cura Annonae or grain dole for citizens who could not afford to buy food every month. Social welfare was enlarged by the Emperor Trajan. Trajan's program brought acclaim from many, including Pliny the Younger. Other provisions for the poor were introduced during the history of Ancient Rome." (Wikipedia)

If you were orphaned, widowed, disabled in an accident, you were up the proverbial creek without a paddle IF you didn't have friends or family to take care of you. That's one of the reasons Epicurus places so much importance on solid, mutually-beneficial friendships. You knew you had a social support system. Friendships based on politics or convenience would not be of any help if the friendship was no longer politically beneficial to one party.

That's not too say that Epicurean friendships were not warm, loving, respectful, caring, etc. They no doubt were. Epicurus himself makes provisions in his will for his friend's children! But that larger societal context is important to keep in mind.

Quote from Pacatus

Could you combine the terms into a phrase meaning “neighborly hospitality” perhaps?

γειτοξενια?? "Neighbor-hospitality"??

γειτοφιλια?? "Neighbor-friendship"??

PS: To be used for entertainment purposes only. Not intended for use by actual Ancient Greeks

Thanks, Lowri834 , I just saw Green's video over the weekend. For those curious:

Quote from Lowri834

I did notice that now that I'm aware of Epicuris, that even as a newbie, I am noticing it in culture and in my life.

Agreed. Epicurean ideas are far more prevalent in culture than people realize, from science to psychology to "common sense." People just aren't aware of them.

Pacatus raises an interesting point.

The word that Epicurus consistently uses that is translated "friend, friendship" is philos, philia φίλος, φιλιά.

Philia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, φι^λί-α

Ancient Greek had several words that evoked gradations and varieties of affection or love. I'm curious which one would be closest to Pacatus's "neighborliness" scenario.

Greek words for love - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Maybe xenia (ξενία, xenía) instead of philia?

For additional context, here's a related thread:

Thread

What "Live Unknown" means to me (Lathe Biosas)

Fragment 551 famously reads λάθε βιώσας and is usually translated as "Live unknown." It could also be translated as "Live hidden," "Live unnoticed," or "Live while escaping notice."

But how do we square this coming from Epicurus who is known two thousand years after he died. Did he live by this maxim? We can't say Epicurus was even unknown during his life. So how are we to understand láthe biōsas as it pertains to him and ourselves?

Epicurus encouraged people to shun the world of politics and the…

Don

March 7, 2020 at 11:12 PM

Quote from Cassius

It is kind of ironic! In many cases it makes sense to avoid politics, in many other cases it is essential to charge right in! In truth politics is just another example of exercising prudence to chose your actions wisely, and not a place for a flat prohibition any more than any other place in life!

Context, context, context.

We mentioned Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett on the episode. I maintain that the research that Dr. Barrett and researchers like her are doing is directly relevant to a modern understanding of Epicurus's concentration on the feelings and prolepseis. This is a pretty good introduction to her work:

123 | Lisa Feldman Barrett on Emotions, Actions, and the Brain – Sean Carroll

PS. I thought this from Dr. Barrett strengthens Epicurus's broad definition of pleasure (and pain):

Quote from Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett

You never have an affectless moment in your life, so you can never be without feeling unless you have a non-neurotypical brain or something is terribly wrong, and so rational moments, moments of rational decision are not moments without feeling, that’s just not possible based on the anatomy of how our brains are structured.

PPS. At around 36:23 on that podcast with Sean Carroll, Dr Barrett starts talking about "categories" and "concepts" (specific scientific terminology, not the common meaning.. just listen) and, to me, those ideas sound a LOT like how prolepseis function, at least insofar as I understand prolepseis.. including how Dr Glidden described them. I find this intersection of Epicurean philosophy and neuroscience absolutely fascinating!

Quote from Pacatus

I admit (unapologetically) that I have some Cyrenaic tendencies (while recognizing errors in Aristippus’ philosophy that I think Epicurus corrects)

I was looking closer at your post above and wanted to comment on this. And I'm glad you added "unapologetically"! From my perspective and interpretation, the genius of Epicurus was to include *all* pleasures under his umbrella definition of pleasure. He supposedly said he couldn't imagine The Good (ie, pleasure) "without the joys of taste, of sex, of hearing, and without the pleasing motions caused by the sight of bodies and forms." He urged his students to experience joy and merriment. He talked about the importance of "peace of mind, freedom from pain, and a disposition of the soul that sets its limits in accordance with nature." And more! The Cyrenaics seem to have had a narrow definition of pleasure, but Epicurus understood that pleasures come from a myriad of sources. Having a few "Cyrenaic tendencies" doesn't seem to be a problem for him. If they bring you pleasure with minimal painful consequences, enjoy...unapologetically

Quote from Pacatus

Apologies Don if I am misinterpreting/misrepresenting you here.

No apologies necessary, Pacatus. I can see how what I said might be interpreted that way.

Quote from Pacatus

But neither do I want to be continually working an abacus in my head to calculate, calculate, calculate (nor a set of scales to weigh, and weigh and weigh) – or even to think, think, think.

I definitely don't advocate literal calculations like adding up Utilitarian dolor (pain) and hedon (pleasure) points for decision-making. The word used there in Greek for "ask" actually means "one must apply, administer, of instruments or drugs." We use our faculty of choice and rejection like applying a treatment, a tool, or a medicine to our lives.

I think it becomes second nature to apply that idea to decisions. I don't think Epicurus was saying to make a list of pros and cons for every decision every moment. But I do think he was saying to get in the habit of not making rash decisions and such.

Quote from Pacatus

With that said: although it might be “a bit early,” I’m going to enjoy an afternoon martini (even if it leads to an unplanned nap ).

Substitute a cold IPA and I'm right there with you!

We mentioned the circumplex in today's episode. Here are some resources:

Russell’s (1980) Circumplex Models – Psychology of Human Emotion: An Open Access Textbook

The circumplex model of affect: An integrative approach to affective neuroscience, cognitive development, and psychopathology

The circumplex model of affect proposes that all affective states arise from cognitive interpretations of core neural sensations that are the product of two…

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

PS: From my perspective, Epicurus included *everything* to the right of the vertical axis in his definition of pleasure. The Cyrenaics, for example, only included the upper right quadrant.