Posts by Don

Welcome! χαίρε! Salve!

Epicurus The Extant Remains Bailey Oxford 1926 Optimized For Greek On Left : Cyril Bailey : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Epicurus - The Extant Remains - Cyril Bailey - Optimized for Greek on Left Side for On-Line Viewing

archive.org

See p.397 in Bailey link.

He references the similarity to VS54:

54. Do not pretend to love and practice wisdom, but love and practice wisdom in reality; for we need not the appearance of health but true health.

οὐ προσποιεῖσθαι δεῖ φιλοσοφεῖν, ἀλλʼ ὄντως φιλοσοφεῖν· οὐ γὰρ προσδεόμεθα τοῦ δοκεῖν ὑγιαίνειν, ἀλλὰ τοῦ κατʼ ἀλήθειαν ὑγιαίνειν.

There's also The Hellenistic Philosophers by Long and Sedley to borrow from Internet Archive for free (one hour at a time):

The Hellenistic philosophers : Long, A. A : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

2 volumes : 24 cm

archive.org

I mentioned The Oxyrhynchus Papyrus 215 in this episode (Internet Archive link opens to papyrus #215):

The Oxyrhynchus papyri : Grenfell, Bernard P. (Bernard Pyne), 1869-1926 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

26 35 43

archive.org

For a little background on the papyri:

Oxyrhynchus Papyri - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

and the WP article to 215 itself:

Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 215 - Wikipedia

I'm glad Elli brought up Diogenes Laertius (DL) 10.21. I had been meaning to check that line. This is where Epicurus himself also uses the word παίδων and where it explicitly means "slave" because he is freeing Mys, Nicias, Lycon, and Phaedrium:

DL 10.21.b, Epicurus's Will: παίδων = "slaves" (male and female enslaved people)

ἀφίημι δὲ τῶν παίδων ἐλεύθερον Μῦν, Νικίαν, Λύκωνα: ἀφίημι δὲ καὶ Φαίδριον ἐλευθερίᾳ.

Of my slaves, I manumit Mys, Nicias, Lycon, and I also give Phaedrium her liberty.

Epicurus also uses the word to mean girl and children (girl & boy) in his Will. Nowhere does he use the word to mean exclusively "boys" as most translators want to do in the Letter to Menoikeus, DL 10.132. I see no compellig reason to require the "having sex with boys and women" route there.

DL 10.20, Epicurus's Will: παιδίῳ = "girl" (female child)

τὴν δὲ προῖκα τῷ θήλει παιδίῳ, ἐπειδὰν εἰς ἡλικίαν ἔλθῃ, μερισάτωσαν Ἀμυνόμαχος καὶ Τιμοκράτης ὅσον ἂν ἐπιδέχηται ἀπὸ τῶν ὑπαρχόντων ἀφαιροῦντες μετὰ τῆς Ἑρμάρχου γνώμης.

And when the girl comes of age, let Amynomachus and Timocrates pay her dowry, taking from the property as much as circumstances allow, subject to the approval of Hermarchus.

DL 10.21.a, Epicurus's Will: παιδία = "children" (girl and boy)

Ἐὰν δέ τι τῶν ἀνθρωπίνων περὶ Ἕρμαρχον γένηται πρὸ τοῦ τὰ Μητροδώρου παιδία εἰς ἡλικίαν ἐλθεῖν, δοῦναι Ἀμυνόμαχον καὶ Τιμοκράτην, ...

And if anything should happen to Hermarchus before the children of Metrodorus grow up, Amynomachus and Timocrates shall give from the funds bequeathed by me,...

DL 10.22, Epicurus's Will: παίδων = "children" (boy and girl)

σὺ δ᾽ ἀξίως τῆς ἐκ μειρακίου παραστάσεως πρὸς ἐμὲ καὶ φιλοσοφίαν ἐπιμελοῦ τῶν παίδων Μητροδώρου.

But I would have you, as becomes your life-long attitude to me and to philosophy, watch over the children of Metrodorus."

DL 10.132, Letter to Menoikeus: παίδων (καὶ γυναικῶν)

οὐδ᾽ ἀπολαύσεις παίδων καὶ γυναικῶν

I also find Elli's suggestion that we should take γυναικῶν as "wives" and not simply "women" intriguing as well.

I'm still working on the exact connotation of ἀπολαύσεις.

To review, Epicurus is saying in 10.132, that when he says pleasure, he does not mean:

• an endless string of drinking parties and festivals
• ἀπολαύσεις παίδων καὶ γυναικῶν
• an extravagant table of fish and other things

I remain leaning toward the sense of not taking advantage of slaves and women/wives, but now Elli has planted the idea in my mind that... Could the phrase means something like "not enjoying the benefits of children and wives" to go along with an ambivalence toward marriage and children. It seems to harsh, since Epicurus was obviously concerned with the well-being of the children of Metrodorus and was not averse to having children named after him. I don't *think* so... but I'm raising it here for discussion. This continues to be a very illuminating and enjoyable discussion. Would that we just had MORE of Epicurus's writings!!

PS. Even though I brought it up for discussion, I remain highly skeptical of a reading like "not enjoying the benefits of children and wives" as in not being a husband and father. It doesn't fit with the drinking and feasting that bracket ἀπολαύσεις παίδων καὶ γυναικῶν. I still find the possible connotation intriguing but not compelling. Wanted to get that in here.

FYI

Nature’s God - Matthew Stewart

Not only the erudite Thomas Jefferson, the wily and elusive Ben Franklin, and the underappreciated Thomas Paine, but also Ethan Allen, the hero of the Green…

mwstewart.com

One can't read it in an hour, but if anyone is interested in searching it for Epicurus or Lucretius...

Nature's God : the heretical origins of the American republic : Stewart, Matthew, 1963- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

vii, 566 pages ; 25 cm

archive.org

Quote from Godfrey

One interesting tidbit on NewEpicurean.com is Cosma Raimondi. I don't think I've heard of her before and I'll certainly read her letter.

Turns out Cosma is a man's name. Final a is evidently for male names in Italy.

Quote from Cassius

Also there is a Links page here with links to most of the other current Epicurean websites:

https://www.epicureanfriends.com/wcf/link-overv…e&sortOrder=ASC

I'm getting this from your link:

Insufficient Permissions

Access denied. You’re not authorized to view this page.

I'm pinning my hopes on the Europa mission

NASA's Europa Clipper

Earth’s first mission to conduct detailed reconnaissance of Jupiter’s moon, Europa. NASA’s Europa Clipper will determine if this ocean world has environments…

europa.nasa.gov

You are too kind, Elli. This discussion continues to be both pleasurable and enlightening for me as well.

M. Tullius Cicero, Tusculanae Disputationes, book 5, section 24

in eo etiam putatur dicere in rotam— id est genus quoddam tormenti apud Graecos6—beatam vitam non escendere.7 non usquam8 id quidem dicit omnino, sed quae dicit, idem valent.

6 id est ... Graecos del. Er. vix recte. τροχὸς ante hunc locum a Romanis non commemoratur. (in R his verbis linea subducta est, sed s. XVII/XVIII demum sec. Stroux) ge- nus R

Greek Word Study Tool

wheel of torture, Anacr.21.9; “ἐπὶ τοῦ τ. στρεβλοῦσθαι” Ar.Pl.875, Lys.846, D.29.40; “ἕλκεσθαι” Ar.Pax452; “ἐπὶ τὸν τ. ἀναβῆναι” Antipho 5.40; “ἀναβιβάζειν τινὰ ἐπὶ τὸν τ.” And.1.43; “ἐν τῷ τ. ἐνδεδεμένον” Plu.2.509c; τῷ τ. προσηλοῦν [᾽Ιξίονα] ib.19e, cf. Luc. DDeor.6.5.

PS:

Antiphon, On the murder of Herodes, section 40

[40] Also let me point out to you that at the start, before being placed on the wheel, in fact, until extreme pressure was brought to bear, the man adhered to the truth and declared me innocent. It was only when on the wheel, and when driven to it, that he falsely incriminated me, in order to put an end to the torture.

Antiphon (orator) - Wikipedia

The Loeb translation has a footnote referencing a Greek phrase: στρεβλοῦσθαι ἐπὶ τροχοῦ

to stretch on the wheel or rack, to rack, torture

I will add that I liked the take on katastematic and kinetic pleasures in The faith of Epicurus by Benjamin Farrington.

The faith of Epicurus : Farrington, Benjamin, 1891- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

xiii, 160 p. ; 22 cm

archive.org

The specific activities Epicurus calls out in the letter as saying he doesn't mean these when "we say" pleasure are:

(i) endless strings of drinking parties and festivals

(ii) απολαυσεις of slaves/boys and women

(iii) extravagant tables of fish and other things

Unfortunately, I don't see anything about paying money to have sex with those two groups. There's not necessarily money involved in the other two activities, it's the attendance at endless parties, festivals, and feasts that appears to be the problem.

PS. I cross posted with Elli, so I didn't have a chance yet to read her post directly above. On a first glance, there looks to possibly be some good topics brought up. I'll respond later. Promise.

Quote from Cassius

But for me, this problem is overcome by arguments stated at length by Boris Nikolsky and Gosling and Taylor, who allege that this widely held premise is not correct, and that Epicurus did not hold katatastemic as higher than kinetic, or place "tranquility" at the center of his philosophy rather than pleasure, as is attributed to him.

Agreed about not elaborating on this thread; but, for the record: I have come to the understanding that Epicurus and his school taught that we can be more confident in having access to katastematic pleasure like ataraxia that arise from our minds than we can kinetic pleasures that arise from external circumstances and activities. That doesn't make them "better" just more readily available.

All of these use some form of ἀπολαύσεις, and, from my perspective, have to have similar connotations among themselves. I've used the English gloss "enjoy" but am not satisfied with that as any kind of best solution. I've also added some inline commentary, basically thinking out loud...

Letter to Menoikeus 124

A correct understanding that death is nothing to us makes the mortality of life ἀπολαυστὸν (enjoyable).

(We enjoy all that life has to offer, we are grateful for the benefit we gain from being alive.)

Letter to Menoikeus 130

firmly persuaded that those who need luxury the least ἀπολαύουσιν (they enjoy) it the most,

(They can get enjoyment from having the benefit of partaking in luxuries)

Letter to Menoikeus 131

So when we say that pleasure is the goal, we do not mean the pleasures of decadent people and those in ἀπολαύσει κειμένας (lit., those lying in enjoying),

(I find the 'lying in repose in enjoyment' intriguing, but I'm still not entirely sold. Especially now in light of the other uses. "those embedded in enjoying..." I don't know.)

Letter to Menoikeus 132

and ἀπολαύσεις (enjoying) boys/slaves and women

(enjoying the benefits of boys/slaves and women??)

VS27

Whereas other pursuits yield their fruit only to those who have practiced them to perfection; in the love and practice of wisdom, knowledge is accompanied by delight; for here ἀπόλαυσις (enjoyment) does not follow learning; but learning and ἀπόλαυσις (enjoyment) occur at the same time. (A more literal translation)

It's also instructive to see where Epicurus uses the word positively and where he gives it a negative connotation:

LM124, 130, and VS27 are positive statements (i.e., απολαυσισ should be pursued)

LM131 and 132 are negative statements (i.e., απολαυσισ should be avoided)

Why is απολαυσισ not what Epicurus means by pleasure when it's paired with κειμενας?

What is negative about ἀπολαύσεις with boys/slaves and women?

Per LSJ: απολαυω has the connotation of "enjoy," but more specifically "have enjoyment of a thing, have the benefit of it"

Also, I remain unconvinced that παίδων necessarily refers to "boys." In the plural, it can mean "children" in general but is also a common word for "slave." Enslaved people and women were members of Epicurus's school, in contrast to other philosophical schools. I need to resolve the ambiguity of ἀπολαύσεις before I'll be satisfied with simply accepting the translation sense of "having sex with boys and women." That sounds anti-sex, and Epicurus couldn't comprehend "The Good" without the pleasures of sex, etc.

P.S.: I may have to accept the ambiguity... but I'm not willing to throw in the towel quite yet. Although, I recognize this has taken on a slight tinge of obsession here.

Quote from Cassius

I agree that there is a distinction to be made between desire and choice and avoidance and pleasure and it's probably time to go back into that subject, because I am not sure we ever clarified it, and I agree that would help. How does "desire" differ from "choose to pursue" or even just "choose?"

We can choose to pursue or reject a desire.

We cannot choose whether or not something feels good, ie, evokes pleasure.

Still VERY much a work in progress but...

I'm seeing απολαυσις and its derivatives as:

- Taking pleasure or enjoyment in something to which you feel entitled to do so since you have "worked for it," in the broadest sense.

Or something like that.

This, to me, dovetails with what Elli is saying the modern sense of the word is:

Quote from Elli

e.g. I enjoy special privileges. ~ I enjoy of great esteem / I enjoy trust - I am well esteemed, I am highly respected.

Thus, there is no need "to fight" to enjoy of being trusted and well esteemed!

Quote

Slaves were often called pais (‘boy’/‘girl’) and its diminutives paidion, paidarion and paidiskē. These words express paternalistic views of slaves and their equivalence to minors in the family, but the slaves thus described are not necessarily children (e.g. Lysias 1.12). Therefore, these words too must be studied in context. The pais-words, especially the vocative form, ‘pai’, often have a demeaning shade. As words referring to the domestic scene they are most frequently used in comedy (Mactoux 1980: 156–157). In Graeco-Roman Egypt these words were used mainly in private documents, whose addressees knew the legal status of the persons so called; in official documents other terms are generally found.

11 12

Greek and Roman Terminologies of Slavery

The Greeks had no single generic term for ‘slave’, but a variety of terms for diverse relations of dependence and unfree people, many of which were also used…

www.academia.edu