Posts by Don

DigiVatLib

402v

I'm skeptical now to say that VS20 = PD29 since we've seen some discrepancies in a one-to-one duplication of VS's and PD's.

The transcription of this VS/PD appears to run here:

τῶν ἐπιθυμιῶν αἱ μέν εἰσι φυσικαὶ καὶ ἀναγκαῖαι, αἱ δὲ φυσικαὶ καὶ pasted-from-clipboard.png ἀναγκαῖαι, δὲ αἱ δὲ οὔτε φυσικαὶ οὔτε ἀναγκαῖαι, ἀλλὰ παρὰ κενὴν δόξαν γινόμαι.

or as it appears to be...

τῶν ἐπιθυμιῶν αἱ μέν εἰσι φυσικαὶ καὶ ἀναγκαῖαι, αἱ δὲ φυσικαὶ καὶ μέν οὔκ ἀναγκαῖαι, δὲ αἱ δὲ οὔτε φυσικαὶ οὔτε ἀναγκαῖαι, ἀλλὰ παρὰ κενὴν δόξαν γινόμαι.

Of the desires, on the one hand, there are the natural and necessary; then the natural ones and the not necessary ones; then the not natural and not necessary arising from empty belief.

Now the usual transcription and translation run:

τῶν ἐπιθυμιῶν αἱ μέν εἰσι φυσικαὶ καὶ <ἀναγκαῖαι, αἱ δὲ φυσικαὶ καὶ> οὐκ ἀναγκαῖαι, αἱ δὲ οὔτε φυσικαὶ οὔτε ἀναγκαῖαι, ἀλλὰ παρὰ κενὴν δόξαν γινόμεναι.

Among desires, some are natural and necessary, some are natural and unnecessary, and some are unnatural and unnecessary (arising instead from groundless opinion).

You can compare the discrepancies in the manuscript vs the usual transcription.

DigiVatLib

402v

He who forgets the good things he had yesterday becomes an old man today.

τοῦ γεγονότος ἀμνήμων ἀγαθοῦ γέρων τήμερον γεγένηται.

DigiVatLib

402v

Usual transcription and translation:

The passion of love disappears without the opportunity to see each other and talk and be together.

ἀφαιρουμένης προσόψεως καὶ ὁμιλίας [καὶ] συναναστροφῆς ἐκλύεται τὸ ἐρωτικὸν πάθος.

DigiVatLib

402v

First saying at top of folio 402v

Typical transcription and translation, matching to manuscript still needs verified (7/8/23):

It is not the young man who is most happy, but the old man who has lived beautifully; for despite being at his very peak the young man stumbles around as if he were of many minds, whereas the old man has settled into old age as if in a harbor, secure in his gratitude for the good things he was once unsure of.

οὐ νέος μακαριστὸς ἀλλὰ γέρων βεβιωκὼς καλῶς· ὁ γὰρ νέος ἀκμῇ πολὺς ὑπὸ τῆς τύχης ἑτεροφρονῶν πλάζεται· ὁ δὲ γέρων καθάπερ ἐν λιμένι τῷ γήρᾳ καθώρμικεν, τὰ πρότερον δυσελπιστούμενα τῶν ἀγαθῶν ἀσφαλεῖ κατακλείσας χάριτι.

DigiVatLib

402r

VS16 is the last saying on folio 402r

Usual transcription is:

No one who sees what is bad chooses it willingly; instead he is lured into seeing it as good compared to what is even worse, and thus he is trapped.

Οὐδεὶς βλέπων τὸ κακὸν αἱρεῖται αὐτό, ἀλλὰ δελεασθεὶς ὡς ἀγαθῷ πρὸς τὸ μεῖζον αὐτοῦ κακὸν ἐθηρεύθη.

Quote from Cassius

Any possibility they trying to save space on the paper as much as possible so writing in continuous lines, but somehow marking where lines started on the manuscript from which they were copying?

(I also added a postscript to that last post of I was editing while you were replying.)

The scribe here in Vat.gr.1950 doesn't seem as concerned with maximizing his writing surface. Back in the day, Philodemus's texts would run everything all together. This 14th c manuscript with the Sayings actually has word breaks and will start a new line when the previous saying is done. One component is definitely the start of a new quote, but not consistently... At least from our perspective on what we would expect to be a new quote.

Quote from Cassius

So do you have any theory at all as to the use of the red?

Typically, it's simply the first word of each "saying," marking the beginning of each quote.

However, as I've noted on several just so far, sometimes the beginning of what we would see as a beginning does not have a red letter, and a couple so far have a red letter in the "middle" of a saying. I initially just took the "Oh, they mark the start of each saying" route. Now, I'm not sure whether we should invest them with any additional significance or not. This has become an eye opening exercise!

This exercise also brings to light a problem with just accepting "Oh, Vatican Saying X is just identical to Principal Doctrine Y. Nothing to see here." Yes, they may be *almost* identical, but if they're not entirely, how does that affect our reading of each? Vat.gr.1950 is dated to 1300-1350 CE, so not as early as some of the earliest manuscripts for Diogenes Laertius which go back to the 12th c, I believe. How do the VS/PD correlations look in reference to the earliest Laertius manuscripts? Vat.gr.1950 is getting its versions from somewhere! This is where the fun begins!

This is the header/title of the section containing the "Vatican Sayings"...

and reads:

Επικουρου προσφωνησισ (Epikourou prosphonesis)

The first word is, of course, "of Epicurus"

The second word means something like "address, dedication, etc."

So it could be even something like "the mode of speaking of Epicurus" or, since his name comes first, "Epicurus's mode of speaking."

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, π , προσφύρω , προσφών-ησις

I must say I like that fancy initial Epsilon+pi ligature in Epicurus's name With a little fancy photomanipulation we can get just Epicurus's name with some flourishes from that title:

Επικουροσ (Epicurus)

DigiVatLib

402r

Typical rendering:

We treasure our character as our own, whether or not it is worthy in itself or admired by others; and so we must honor our fellow men, if they are good. ἤθη ὥσπερ τὰ ἡμῶν αὐτῶν ἴδια τιμῶμεν, ἄν τε χρηστὰ ἔχωμεν, καὶ ὑπὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων ζηλούμενα, ἄν τε μή· οὕτω χρὴ καὶ <τὰ> τῶν πέλας, ἂν ἐπιεικεῖς ὦσιν.

The Vat.gr.1950 manuscript text reads:

DigiVatLib

402r

The typical transcription reads:

γεγόναμεν ἅπαξ, δὶς δὲ οὐκ ἔστι γενέσθαι· δεῖ δὲ τὸν αἰῶνα μηκέτι εἶναι· σὺ δὲ οὐκ ὢν τῆς αὔριον κύριος ἀναβάλλῃ τὸ χαῖρον· ὁ δὲ βίος μελλησμῷ παραπόλλυται καὶ εἷς ἕκαστος ἡμῶν ἀσχολούμενος ἀποθνῄσκει.

However, look at the VERY beginning of the saying. There is a large red capital epsilon: Ε' γεγοναμεν αμαξ... that doesn't appear in the regular rendering of that line. Bailey makes no note of the capital epsilon. This makes it clear each of these will have to be examined more closely.

Okay, so it looks like VS13 does NOT have a red capital letter starting it and comes right after VS12 in the manuscript. In fact the 2nd half of VS13 DOES have a red capital starting it!

VS13 = PD27 and PD27 typically runs:

ὧν ἡ σοφία παρασκευάζεται εἰς τὴν τοῦ ὅλου βίου μακαριότητα πολὺ μέγιστόν ἐστιν ἡ τῆς φιλίας κτῆσις.

VS13 in the Vatican manuscript reads:

https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Vat.gr.1950.pt.2/0255

So, the text in the manuscript reads:

ὧν ἡ σοφία παρασκευάζεται εἰς τὴν τοῦ ὅλου βίου μακαριότητα

Πολὺ μέγιστόν ἐστιν ἡ τῆς ?????? κτῆσις.

which means it breaks the sense of the saying as:

Of all the things that wisdom provides for the complete happiness of one's entire life

By far the greatest is the possession of ????... It looks like σοφιδο (or some version of σοφια????).

Are we to see these as two different sayings?? Something like:

Of all things, wisdom (sophia) provides for the complete happiness of one's entire life.

By far the greatest (thing) is the possession of wisdom.

This is curious and deserves some digging into.

And THIS is why I'm doing these one by one

VS12 = PD17 however, it appears the two are not identical in their phrasing.

Vat.gr.1950, 402r

DigiVatLib

The typical rendering of PD17 is:

ὁ δίκαιος ἀταρακτότατος, ὁ δʼ ἄδικος πλείστης ταραχῆς γήμων.

One who acts aright is utterly steady and serene, whereas one who goes astray is full of trouble and confusion.

However, this saying in the Vatican manuscript includes a couple "extra" words (like βιος "life") then also goes right into the next Vatican saying, here underlined:

ὁ δίκαιος βιος ἀταρακτότατος, ὁ δε ἄδικος πλείστης ταραχῆς γήμων (VS13 starts here) ων ? σοφια πρασ...and so on until the end of the line ending with what appears to be μακαριοτ...??

With the inclusion of "life" is seems like an alternative translation would being "Τhe just life..."

See VS13 for more on this.

I like the poetic aspect of the one Joshua found.

But I really like the more literal translation that Bryan offered above!

Once again, translation is hard

Quote from Cassius

YES that works!

Cool. I'll go back in and change those links in VS1-11 & 81.

Honestly, I have completely selfish reasons for putting those snippets in the forum threads. I'll never have to look them up when we ask "What does that say?"🤔

Try this...

DigiVatLib

I dug around a little more and it looks like you can link directly to pages (albeit I'm getting a 2-page spread from that link)

https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Vat.gr.1950.pt.2

404v, bottom of the page

οὐ λύει τὴν τῆς ψυχῆς ταραχὴν οὐδὲ τὴν ἀξιόλογον ἀπογεννᾷ χαρὰν οὔτε πλοῦτος ὑπάρχων ὁ μέγιστος οὔθʼ ἡ παρὰ τοῖς πολλοῖς τιμὴ καὶ περίβλεψις οὔτʼ ἄλλο τι τῶν παρὰ τὰς ἀδιορίστους αίτίας.

So, here's what I *hoped* you'd see... with the page numbers at the bottom

Quote from Cassius

Well it opens up but to the book cover. I was hoping to find somewhere a direct link to the page where the particular text appears.

Are looking on mobile or laptop?

You should see the folio/page numbers along that bottom.

They got that wrong. It's Epicurus.

You're not seeing the pages from that link?