Posts by Don

Quote from Cassius

I have never had much fix on Usener because I have never been able to read any commentary by him that may exist, but I know I don't have a good feel about Bailey's discretion. But in this case we can't pin this on Bailey, correct? I wish we had more access to Usener's general thoughts on Epicurus to see if (or how) he made similar "this can't be right" comments.

Thank you again Don for all you do.

Usener's Epicurea is on Internet Archive....

Hermann Usener Epicurea ( 1887) : Hermann Usener (editor) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Epicurea is a collection of texts, fragments and testimonies by Epicurus composed by Hermann Usener in 1887

archive.org

LOL! Granted in *Latin* but it's freely available to peruse.

Okay, here we go...

Plut.69.35 - written 1101-1200 CE (12 century CE)

this one clearly has (2nd line φυσιν αρχησ και βασιλειασ...

codex Parisinus gr. 1759 (14th c.) known as P

Well, would you look at at that... in the middle of the second line...φυσιν αρχησ και βασιλειασ...

Grec. 1758

AND three's a charm!! at the end of the first line... φυσιν αρχησ και βασιλειασ αγαθον

So, I suppose you can editorialize and comment as much as one wants... but the phrase is *consistently* there in the manuscripts.

Quote from Cassius

does exist in the manuscript?

I'll have to check those later. Stay tuned....

Ah! Bailey's commentary...

Quote from Nate

Quote from Don

I don't see anything about kingship or politics in the Greek. Am I missing something?

It's text added by Arrighetti denoted with the <brackets>. I believe I have that version listed in my KD compilation.

Do we know which manuscript Arrigheti says this is from?

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Don

I don't see anything about kingship or politics in the Greek. Am I missing something

I seem to remember that we have been down this road before and Elli had some commentary but we will have to look back.....

Thread

PD06 - Disputes as to correct translation of PD6 - Should it refer to "sovereignty" and "kingship"?

I am informed by Elli P. that there are serious issues with the standard English translation of PD6. The versions we most commonly see are:

Bailey: "To secure protection from men anything is a natural good, by which you may be able to attain this end." (note the strangely-placed comma)

Hicks/Loeb: "In order to obtain security from other men any means whatsoever of procuring this was a natural good."

But Hicks notes a problem: epicureanfriends.com/wcf/attachment/34/

Elli cites this version…

Cassius

November 23, 2017 at 6:40 PM

I don't see anything about kingship or politics in the Greek. Am I missing something?

EDIT: See below for where those words comes from in the manuscripts. I dug into them after posting this post.

Quote from Cassius

Don your breakdown by word reminds me of the "nodictionaries.com" format for Latin. I don't suppose you know of an equivalent for Greek?

I typically defer to Wiktionary or directly to Liddell and Scott on Perseus.

PS. Perseus does something similar with its clickable words in texts but not exactly like nodictionaries. I was unaware on that site.

Greek text: Usener edition

6

ἕνεκα τοῦ θαρρεῖν ἐξ ανθρώπων ἦν κατὰ φύσιν ἀρχῆς καὶ βασιλείας ἀγαθόν, ἐξ ὧν ἄν ποτε τοῦτο οἷός τʼᾖ παρασκευάζεσθαι.

• Ἕνεκα
  • ἕνεκᾰ
    • (with genitive)
      • on account of, for the sake of, because of
      • with regard to, as far as regards, as for
• τοῦ θαρρεῖν
  • θαρσέω to be of good courage, take courage; confidence, audacity
    • θαρρεῖν present active infinitive
    • C. inf. to believe confidently that, Soph.; also, to make bold or venture to do, Xen.
• ἀρχῆς καὶ βασιλείας
• https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…57:entry=a)rxh/
• https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…ntry=basilei/a2
• ἐξ ἀνθρώπων
  • "from humans/people/mankind"
• ἦν κατὰ φύσιν ἀγαθόν,
  • κατὰ + accusative:
    • downwards
    • along, through, in
    • towards
    • during
    • for, for the purpose of
    • according to, in conformity with
  • φύσιν ἀγαθόν = "natural good (something doing good practical service to one)"
• ἐξ ὧν ἄν ποτε τοῦτο οἷός
  • ὧν masculine/feminine/neuter genitive plural of ὅς who, which, that
  • ἄν particle, expresses potentiality "in that case"
  • ποτε (adverb) at some time (or other), at one time
  • οἶος m (feminine οἴᾱ, neuter οἶον); first/second declension
    • only, single
• τ’ ᾖ παρασκευάζεσθαι.
  • παρασκευάζω.
    • A. to get ready, prepare, Hdt., attic
      • 2. to provide, procure, to get up, Dem.
      • 3. to make or render so and so, with a Part. or adj., π. τινὰ εὖ ἔχοντα, π. τινὰ ὅτι βέλτιστον Xen.; c. inf., π. τινὰ ὡς μὴ ποιεῖν to accustom him not to do, id=Xen.;—so, π. ὅπως ὡς βέλτισται ἔσονται αἱ ψυχαί Plat.
      • 4. absol. to make one's friend, Dem.
    • B. Mid. and Pass.:
      • I. in proper sense of Mid., to get ready or prepare for oneself, Hdt., attic
      • 2. in Oratt. to procure witnesses and partisans, so as to obtain a false verdict (cf. παρασκευή 1. 3):—absol. to form a party, intrigue, Dem.:—so in Act., Xen.
        II. in Mid., absol. to prepare oneself, make preparations, Hdt., attic
      • 2. perf. παρεσκεύασμαι is mostly pass. to be ready, be prepared, Hdt., attic; παρεσκευάσθαι τί to be provided with a thing, Plat.:—impers., ὡς παρεσκεύαστο when preparations had been made, Thuc.
    • fut. άσω. Pass., perf. παρεσκεύασμαι

Exactly, kochiekoch , thanks for bringing that up! It's still 1st or 2nd century CE when there were still practicing Epicureans. In fact:

2 Timothy 3 Bengel's Gnomon of the New Testament

φιλήδονοι, lovers of pleasure) An epithet of the Epicureans. Pleasure destroys the love and sense of God. Such are our Epicureans.

Bengel was writing in the 1600s:

Johann Albrecht Bengel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I had the thought this evening that with some of the Vatican Sayings being copies (or near copies) of passages from Kyriai Doxai (Principal Doctrines), it would be good to compare what order the VS gives the KDs that it includes. Furthermore, we can probably confirm that the VS/KD passages were also "standalone" passages in KD itself. Also, we read the Vatican Sayings (or as they're titled in the manuscript, "Epicurus's Declaration") in isolation because they are headed that way, with red initial letters. Maybe we should examine them to for any similar groups of like topics. Translations are Saint-Andre's.

Note that, as usual, the correct idea of the gods is first! Just like Principle Doctrines, just like the letter to Menoikeus.

VS = KD

1 = 1

That which is blissful and immortal has no troubles itself, nor does it cause trouble for others, so that it is not affected by anger or gratitude (for all such things come about through weakness).

2 = 2

Death is nothing to us; for what has disintegrated lacks awareness, and what lacks awareness is nothing to us.

3 = 4

Pain does not last continuously in the flesh; instead, the sharpest pain lasts the shortest time, a pain that exceeds bodily pleasure lasts only a few days, and diseases that last a long time involve delights that exceed their pains.

5 = 5

It is not possible to live joyously without also living wisely and beautifully and rightly, nor to live wisely and beautifully and rightly without living joyously; and whoever lacks this cannot live joyously.

6 = 25

If at all critical times you do not connect each of your actions to the natural goal of life, but instead turn too soon to some other kind of goal in thinking whether to avoid or pursue something, then your thoughts and your actions will not be in harmony.

8 = 15

Natural wealth is both limited and easy to acquire, but the riches incited by groundless opinion have no end.

12 = 17

One who acts aright is utterly steady and serene, whereas one who goes astray is full of trouble and confusion.

13 = 27

Of all the things that wisdom provides for the complete happiness of one's entire life, by far the greatest is friendship.

20 = 29

Among desires, some are natural and necessary, some are natural and unnecessary, and some are unnatural and unnecessary (arising instead from groundless opinion).

22 = 19

Finite time and infinite time contain the same amount of joy, if its limits are measured out through reasoning.

49 = 12

It is impossible for someone who is completely ignorant about nature to wash away his fears about the most important matters if he retains some suspicions about the myths. So it is impossible to experience undiluted enjoyment without studying what is natural.

50 = 8

No pleasure is bad in itself; but the means of paying for some pleasures bring with them disturbances many times greater than the pleasures themselves.

72 = 13

It is useless to be safe from other people while retaining suspicions about what is above and below the earth and in general about the infinite unknown.

Great find!!!

The word in Greek is φιλήδονος (philēdonos) from φίλος (philos) and ἡδονή (hēdonē) or in the plural φιλήδονοι.

Textus Receptus

3:4 προδόται προπετεῖς τετυφωμένοι φιλήδονοι μᾶλλον ἢ φιλόθεοι (philotheoi)

I literally just checked my Daff Moon app and saw that today is the 20th day in the moon's cycle. So, happy "celestial" 20th to everyone!

Daff Moon Phase - Apps on Google Play

Current Moon phase, rise/set time and positions of the Moon, Sun and planets

play.google.com

Offering the following for food for thought...

What's the difference, if any, among the following:

• Pleasurable life
• Pleasure-filled life
• Life of pleasure
• Life of well-being
• Well-being
• Happy life
• Joyous life
• Blessed life

"Pleasure is not a four-letter word!"

In French:

https://journals.openedition.org/philosant/pdf/3044

From P. Gordon: Epicurus in Lycia.

[CASSIUS ADMIN NOTE: Thanks to Don for finding these two articles by Julie Giovacchini. At present I only have the second in google translate form (see post below) but they look to contain a lot of interesting information and deserve a thread of their own - especially the one linked in post 2 below.]

Gal. (Galen) and the tetrapharmakos

(Suggest using Google Translate for French website)

Quote from Cassius

I don't see what he is citing as a reference for the usage as to Epicurus two except the text from Philodemus, so is one of these words transcribed above translated as tetrapharmakos?

The word starts at the end of the first line of the manuscript image:

...... ΤΕΤΡΑΦΑΡ[ΜΑ]

ΚΟΣ ....

It's from Herculaneum manuscript P.Herc.1005.

Here's the full page/column, engraved 1844-1861 by Vincenzo Corazza

μνη[σθεὶς τῶν λόγων δεδει-]

γμέ[ν]ω̣ν καὶ τῶν [σοι] εὖ

γε̣[γ]ο̣νότ̣ων τόδε π[άλιν]

ἐπιλογίζου καὶ κ[ενὰ]

περὶ τοῦ̣ μέλλοντο[ς νό-]

[μ]ιζε καὶ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣[ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣]

[κ]αὶ πα̣νταχῆι παρει̣ρ[η-]

μένο̣[ν] ἡ τετραφάρμα-

κος· 'ἄφοβον ὁ θεός, ἀν[ύ-]

ποπτον ὁ θάνατος καὶ

τἀγαθὸν μὲν εὔκτητ̣ο̣ν̣,

τὸ δὲ δεινὸν εὐεκκα[ρ-]

τέρητον.' οὓς δ' ἐκ τῶν

βυβλίων φησὶν ἐκφέ-

ρει̣ν ἀν[α]λογισμούς,

ταύτας εἴσει τὰς λέξει̣ς

ἀν̣ταποδόσεις δώδ[ε]κ' [ἢ]

πεντ[ε]καίδεκα Μ[ ̣ ̣ ̣]ΙΣ[ ̣]

ΠΩ[ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣]ΡΕΙ[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]

The four lines of the tetrapharmakos are underlined.