Posts by Don

I would like to add a note on the word "triumph." This came to my attention when reading Bart Ehrman's "The Triumph of Christianity." His purposeful use of that word - and its use by others at the time - is tied directly to the Roman understanding of that term. We tend to see "triumph" as simply a synonym for "winning." But a Roman triumph was an event celebrating that your enemies were crushed, and they were paraded through the streets in chains. That's a triumph! And that's what's being depicted in this artwork with St. Augustine.

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_triumph?wprov=sfla1

Joshua's mention of the bread symbol was new to me. Thanks, Joshua!

That specific design then must have been based on the panis quadratus:

Baking Bread with the Romans: Part II – Panis Quadratus

Taste the daily life of Romans with this recipe for Panis Quadratus: The infamous sectioned bread excavated at Pompeii and preserved for millenia after the…

tavolamediterranea.com

https://www.christianiconography.info/Venice%202018/…rySerafini.html ?

I decided to correlate the Kyriai Doxai excerpts from Diogenes of Oenoanda's inscription to see what order they appear there as far as we can tell.

The excerpts from Kyriai Doxai that appear in the inscription appear to be in the following order:

PD1

PD2

PD6 & PD8 (combined)

PD10

PD3

PD13

PD5

PD29

PD25

PD32

PD4

PD16

In trying to see any parallels with the Vatican Sayings, here is the correlated list again from there:

VS = KD

1 = 1

2 = 2

3 = 4

5 = 5

6 = 25

8 = 15

12 = 17

13 = 27

20 = 29

22 = 19

49 = 12

50 = 8

72 = 13

Note that PD1 and PD2 are ALWAYS first!

PD4, PD13, PD25, PD29 are separated in each list, so they must be considered separate sayings.

Interesting that PD6 & PD8 are combined in Oenoanda but separate in Vatican Sayings.

One must also keep in mind that not all the Oenoanda fragments have been found, too!

Without further ado...

The Kyriai Doxai excerpts currently known in the inscription of Diogenes of Oenoanda

The following format is:

1. PD covered (ex. * PD1)

2. Text as it appears in the inscription translation at http://www.english.enoanda.cat/the_inscription.html

3. Greek text as it appears from https://papyri.info/dclp/865216

4. Hicks' Greek transcription (and a couple translations) from Perseus at http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…0%3Achapter%3D1

* PD1

Fr. 29 lower margin (Epic. Sent. 1)

[The blessed and imperishable being] neither experiences troubles itself nor causes it to another, [so that it is not affected by feelings either anger or of favour; for it is to the weak that such emotions belong.]

fragment 29NF207 column margin

[τὸ μακάριον καὶ ἄφθαρ]τ̣ον οὔτε αὐτὸ πράγματα ἔχει οὔτε̣ ̣ἄ̣λ̣λ̣ῷ̣ ̣π̣α̣ρέχ[ει], ὥστε οὔτ̣᾿ ὀργαῖς vac. 1 οὔτε χάρισιν συνέχεται· ἐν ἀσθεν̣[εῖ γὰρ πᾶν τὸ τοιοῦτον]

Hicks

Τὸ μακάριον καὶ ἄφθαρτον οὔτε αὐτὸ πράγματα ἔχει οὔτε ἄλλῳ παρέχει, ὥστε οὔτε ὀργαῖς οὔτε χάρισι συνέχεται: ἐν ἀσθενεῖ γὰρ πᾶν τὸ τοιοῦτον.

NOTE: No scholion in Diogenens O's inscription (or one that survives)

* PD2

Fr. 30 lower margin (Epic. Sent. 2)

[Death] is nothing to us; for what has been dissolved is without sensation, [and what is without sensation is nothing to us.]

fragment 146 column 1

[ὁ θάνατος οὐδὲν]

[πρὸς ἡμᾶς· ἡ ψυχὴ γάρ,]

[ἐμεὶ τάχιστα ἥκομεν]

[εἰς τὰ τέρματα ἀμετα-]

5[κείνητα βέβ]αιά θ' ἅ ε̣σ̣-

[τιν τὸ πέρ]ας φυσικο̣ῦ

[βίου, διαλύε]ται. vac. 1

⁦ vac. 1

HICKS

Ὁ θάνατος οὐδὲν πρὸς ἡμᾶς: τὸ γὰρ διαλυθὲν ἀναισθητεῖ: τὸ δ᾽ ἀναισθητοῦν οὐδὲν πρὸς ἡμᾶς.

* PD6 & PD8

Fr. 32 lower margin (Epic. Sent. 6,

[For the purpose of gaining security from men government and kingship are a natural good, so long as] this end can be procured [from them].

No pleasure is intrinsically bad; but the] means for achieving some pleasures [involve disturbances] that are far, [outweigh the pleasures.]

fragment 38 column margin

[ἕνεκα τοῦ θαρρεῖν ἐξ ἀνθρώπων ἦν κατὰ φύσιν ἀρχῆς καὶ βασιλείας ἀγαθόν, ἐξ ὧν ἄν ποτε οἷός τ'] ᾖ τοῦτο παρασκευ[άζε]σ̣θ̣α̣ι̣. vac. 1 [οὐδεμία ἡδ]ονὴ καθ' ἑαυτὴν κα̣[κόν· ἀλλὰ τὰ] π̣οιητικὰ ἐνίω̣ν ἡδ̣ο̣νῶν πο̣λλ[α]πλ[α]σ̣ί̣[ους ὀχλήσεις ἐπιφέρει τῶν ἡδονῶν].

HICKS

[ϝι.] Ἕνεκα τοῦ θαρρεῖν ἐξ ἀνθρώπων, ἦν κατὰ φύσιν [ἀρχῆς καὶ βασιλείας] ἀγαθόν, ἐξ ὧν ἄν ποτε τοῦθ᾽ οἷός τ᾽ ᾖ παρασκευάζεσθαι.

[ϝιιι.] Οὐδεμία ἡδονὴ καθ᾽ ἑαυτὸ κακόν: ἀλλὰ τὰ τινῶν ἡδονῶν ποιητικὰ πολλαπλασίους ἐπιφέρει τὰς ὀχλήσεις τῶν ἡδονῶν.

* PD10

Fr. 33 lower margin (Epic. Sent. 10)

[If the things which are productive of pleasures for debauchees dispelled the minds’ fears about celestial phenomena and death and pains, and moreover taught the limit of desires] and of pains, we should have no reason to [censure such people], since they would be seated [with pleasures from every side] and [would] not [experience either mental] or physical pain —[pain which is the evil.]

fragment 33NF128 column margin

[εἰ τὰ ποιητικὰ τῶν περὶ τοὺς ἀσώτους ἡδονῶν ἔλυε τοὺς φόβους τῆς διανοίας τούς τε περὶ μετεώρων καὶ θανάτου καὶ ἀλγηδόνων, ἔτι τε τὸ πέρας τῶν ἐπιθυμιῶν καὶ] τ̣ῶν ἀλγηδόνων ἐδίδασκ̣ε, οὐκ ἄν ποτε εἴχομεν ὅ τι̣ [μεμψαίμεθα αὐτοῖς], π̣αντα[χό]θεν ἐκπλη̣ρ[ο]υ̣μ̣έν̣[οι]ς τ̣ῶ̣[ν ἡδο]ν̣[ῶν καὶ οὔτε τὸ λυπούμεν]ο̣[ν ο]ὔ̣τ̣[ε] τ̣ὸ̣ ἀλγο̣ῦ̣[ν ἔχουσιν, ὅπερ ἐστὶ τὸ κακόν.]

HICKS

[χ.] Εἰ τὰ ποιητικὰ τῶν περὶ τοὺς ἀσώτους ἡδονῶν ἔλυε τοὺς φόβους τῆς διανοίας τούς τε περὶ μετεώρων καὶ θανάτου καὶ ἀλγηδόνων, ἔτι τε τὸ πέρας τῶν ἐπιθυμιῶν ἐδίδασκεν, οὐκ ἄν ποτε εἴχομεν ὅ τι ἐμεμψάμεθα αὐτοῖς, πανταχόθεν εἰσπληρουμένοις τῶν ἡδονῶν καὶ οὐδαμόθεν οὔτε τὸ ἀλγοῦν οὔτε τὸ λυπούμενον ἔχουσιν, ὅ περ ἐστὶ τὸ κακόν.

* PD3

Fr. 34 lower margin (Epic. Sent. 3)

[The quantitative limit of pleasure is the] removal of all pain. [Whoever experiences pleasure, so long as it continues, cannot ever be troubled] by pain of body or of mind or [of both together].

fragment 40 column margin

[ὅρος τοῦ μεγέθους τῶν ἡδονῶν ἡ τοῦ ἀλγ]οῦντος ἅπαντος ὑπεξαίρεσις. [οἷς δ' ἂν τὸ ἡδόμενον ἐνῇ, καθ' ὃν ἂν χρόνον ᾖ, οὐκ ἂν ἔτι ὀχλοῖν]το τῷ ἀλγοῦντι ἢ λυπουμένῳ ἢ σ̣υ̣[ναμφοτέρῳ.]

HICKS

[ιιι.] Ὅρος τοῦ μεγέθους τῶν ἡδονῶν ἡ παντὸς τοῦ ἀλγοῦντος ὑπεξαίρεσις. ὅπου δ᾽ ἂν τὸ ἡδόμενον ἐνῇ, καθ᾽ ὃν ἂν χρόνον ᾖ, οὐκ ἔστι τὸ ἀλγοῦν ἢ τὸ λυπούμενον ἢ τὸ συναμφότερον.

* PD13

Fr. 35 lower margin (Epic. Sent. 3)

There would be [no] advantage [in securing protection against our fellow-men so long s phenomena above and below the earth and in general whatever happens in the boundless universe were matters of suspicion].

fragment 41 column margin

[οὐθὲ]ν ἦν ὄφελο[ς τὴν κατὰ ἀνθρώπους ἀσφάλειαν κατασκευάζεσθαι τῶν ἄνωθεν ὑπόπτων καθεστώτων καὶ τῶν ὑπὸ γῆς καὶ ἁπλῶς τῶν ἐν τῷ ἀπείρῳ].

HICKS

[χιιι.] Οὐθὲν ὄφελος ἦν τὴν κατ᾽ ἀνθρώπους ἀσφάλειαν κατασκευάζεσθαι τῶν ἄνωθεν ὑπόπτων καθεστώτων καὶ τῶν ὑπὸ γῆς καὶ ἁπλῶς τῶν ἐν τῷ ἀπείρῳ.

* PD5

Fr. 37 lower margin (Epic. Sent. 5)

[It is impossible to live pleasurably without living prudently] and honourably and justly, and it is impossible to live prudently and honourably and justly [without living pleasurably. If a man lacks these qualities, it is impossible for him to live pleasurably].

fragment 43 column margin

[οὐκ ἔστιν ἡδέως ζῆν ἄνευ τοῦ φρονίμ]ω̣ς̣ καὶ καλῶς κ̣αὶ δικαίως, ⁦ vac. 1⁩ οὐδὲ φρονίμως καὶ καλῶς καὶ δι̣κ̣α̣[ίως ἄνευ τοῦ ἡδέως. ὅτῳ δὲ τοῦτο· μὴ ὑπάρχει, οὐκ ἔστι τοῦτον ἡδέως ζῆν.]

HICKS

[ϝ.] Οὐκ ἔστιν ἡδέως ζῆν ἄνευ τοῦ φρονίμως καὶ καλῶς καὶ δικαίως, <οὐδὲ φρονίμως καὶ καλῶς καὶ δικαίως> ἄνευ τοῦ ἡδέως. ὅτῳ δὲ τοῦτο μὴ ὑπάρχει ἐξ οὗ ζῆν φρονίμως, καὶ καλῶς καὶ δικαίως ὑπάρχει, οὐκ ἔστι τοῦτον ἡδέως ζῆν.

* PD29

Fr. 39 lower margin (Epic. Sent. 29 = Sent. Vat. 20)

[Of the desires, some are natural and necessary; others] natural, but [not necessary]; and others neither natural nor [necessary, but the products of idle fancy.]

fragment 45 column margin

[τῶν ἐπιθυμιῶν αἱ μέν εἰσι φυσικαὶ καὶ ἀνανκαῖαι· αἱ δὲ φ]υσ̣[ι]κ̣αί γε̣ [οὐκ ἀνανκαῖαι] δ̣έ· ⁦ vac. 1⁩ αἱ δὲ οὔτε φυσικαὶ ο[ὔ]τ̣[ε ἀνανκαῖ]α̣ι, παρὰ δ̣[ὲ κενὴν δόξαν γεινόμεναι.]

HICKS

[χχιχ.] Τῶν ἐπιθυμιῶν αἱ μέν εἰσι φυσικαὶ <καὶ ἀναγκαῖαι: αἱ δὲ φυσικαὶ> καὶ οὐκ ἀναγκαῖαι: αἱ δὲ οὔτε φυσικαὶ οὔτ᾽ ἀναγκαῖαι ἀλλὰ παρὰ κενὴν δόξαν γινόμεναι. NOTE: No scholion on Diogenes' inscription

* PD25

Fr. 40 lower margin (Epic. Sent. 25)

[If you do not at all the times refer each of your actions to the natural end, but instead, when making a choice or avoidance, turn aside to adopt some other criterion, your actions will not be in conformity with your principles].

fragment 46 column margin

[εἰ μὴ παρὰ πάντα καιρὸν ἐπαν]ο̣ίσεις ἕκα[στον τῶν πραττομένων ἐπὶ τὸ τέλος τῆς φύσεως, ἀλλὰ προκαταστρέψεις εἴτε φυγὴν εἴτε δίωξιν ποιούμενος εἰς ἄλλο τι, οὐκ ἔσονταί σοι τοῖς λόγοις αἱ πράξεις ἀκόλουθοι.]

HICKS

[χχϝ.] Εἰ μὴ παρὰ πάντα καιρὸν ἐπανοίσεις ἕκαστον τῶν πραττομένων ἐπὶ τὸ τέλος τῆς φύσεως, ἀλλὰ προκαταστρέψεις εἴ τε φυγὴν εἴ τε δίωξιν ποιούμενος εἰς ἄλλο τι, οὐκ ἔσονταί σοι τοῖς λόγοις αἱ πράξεις ἀκόλουθοι.

* PD32

Fr. 43 lower margin (Epic. Sent. 32)

For [all those animals which could not make compacts not to harm one another or] be harmed, nothing is either [just or indeed unjust. And the same is true of all those peoples witch could not or would not to make compacts not to harm or not to be harmed].

fragment 50 column margin

[ὅσα τῶν ζῴων μὴ ἐδύνατο συνθήκας ποιεῖσθαι τὰς ὑπὲρ τοῦ μὴ βλάπτειν ἄλληλα μηδὲ β]λ̣άπτεσθαι, ⁦ vac. 1⁩ πρὸς̣ [τα]ῦ̣τ' οὐθέ̣ν ἐσ̣τιν̣ οὔτ̣[ε δίκαιον οὐδὲ ἄδικον. ὡσαύτως δὲ καὶ τῶν ἐθνῶν ὅσα μὴ ἐδύνατο ἢ μὴ ἐβούλετο τὰς συνθήκας ποιεῖσθαι τὰς ὑπὲρ τοῦ μὴ βλάπτειν μηδὲ βλάπτεσθαι].

HICKS

[χχχιι.] Ὅσα τῶν ζῴων μὴ ἠδύνατο συνθήκας ποιεῖσθαι τὰς ὑπὲρ τοῦ μὴ βλάπτειν ἄλλα μηδὲ βλάπτεσθαι, πρὸς ταῦτα οὐθὲν ἦν δίκαιον οὐδὲ ἄδικον. ὡσαύτως δὲ καὶ τῶν ἐθνῶν ὅσα μὴ ἠδύνατο ἢ μὴ ἐβούλετο τὰς συνθήκας ποιεῖσθαι τὰς ὑπὲρ τοῦ μὴ βλάπτειν μηδὲ βλάπτεσθαι.

* PD4

Fr. 44 lower margin (Epic. Sent. 4)

[Pain in the flesh does not last continuously: extreme pain is present a very short time; pain which only just outweighs pleasure in the flesh does not last many days; and chronic illnesses] permit a preponderance of pleasure over pain in the flesh.

fragment 51 column margin

[οὐ χρονίζει τὸ ἀλγοῦν συνεχῶς ἐν τῇ σαρκί, ἀλλὰ τὸ μὲν ἄκρον τὸν ἐλάχιστον χρόνον πάρεστι, τὸ δὲ μόνον ὑπερτεῖνον τὸ ἡδόμενον κατὰ σάρκα οὐ πολλὰς ἡμέρας συμβαίνει. αἱ δὲ πολυχρόνιοι τῶν ἀρρωστιῶν πλεο]ν̣άζον ἔχουσι τὸ ἡδόμενον ἐν τῇ σαρκὶ ἤπερ τὸ ἀλγ̣[οῦν].

HICKS

[ιϝ.] Οὐ χρονίζει τὸ ἀλγοῦν συνεχῶς ἐν τῇ σαρκί, ἀλλὰ τὸ μὲν ἄκρον τὸν ἐλάχιστον χρόνον πάρεστι, τὸ δὲ μόνον ὑπερτεῖνον τὸ ἡδόμενον κατὰ σάρκα οὐ πολλὰς ἡμέρας συμμένει.212 αἱ δὲ πολυχρόνιοι τῶν ἀρρωστιῶν πλεονάζον ἔχουσι τὸ ἡδόμενον ἐν τῇ σαρκὶ ἤ περ τὸ ἀλγοῦν.

HICKS

4. Continuous pain does not last long in the flesh ; on the contrary, pain, if extreme, is present a very short time, and even that degree of pain which barely outweighs pleasure in the flesh does not last for many days together. Illnesses of long duration even permit of an excess of pleasure over pain in the flesh.

* PD16

Fr. 49 lower margin (Epic. Sent. 16, cf. Fr. 71.II.9-13)

[It is seldom that chance impedes a wise man: it is] reason [which has controlled the] greatest and most important matters, [and which controls and will control them throughout the whole course of life.]

fragment 56 column margin

[βραχέα σοφῷ τύχη παρενπείπτει, τὰ δὲ] μ̣έγιστα κ̣α̣ὶ κυριώτα̣τα ὁ λογισμὸ̣ς̣ [διῴκηκε καὶ κατὰ τὸν συνεχῆ χρόνον τοῦ βίου διοικεῖ καὶ διοικήσει.]

HICKS

[χϝι.] Βραχέα σοφῷ τύχη παρεμπίπτει, τὰ δὲ μέγιστα καὶ κυριώτατα ὁ λογισμὸς διῴκηκε καὶ κατὰ τὸν συνεχῆ χρόνον τοῦ βίου διοικεῖ καὶ διοικήσει.

Fr. 50 lower margin (from Epic. Sent. 37?)

.... and whether not ....

NOTE: I'm not convinced with this one but include it here for further research.

Just finished the full episode. Fascinating stuff, great conversation, usual fact of being impressed with Joshua's breadth and depth of knowledge.

By Zeus, Godfrey ! I *am* late to the Ingrid party. I see you've mentioned her all the way back to 2019! With your recommendation (which I respect highly), now I really have to dig into her book and blog. Thanks!!

The Science of Joy: Why You Need It and How to Get It | Ingrid Fetell Lee — Ten Percent Happier

The hidden influence that your surroundings can have on your happiness. And how to tweak things in subtle but powerful ways.

www.tenpercent.com

I thought the book discussed here, Joyful: The Surprising Power of Ordinary Things to Create Extraordinary Happiness, had a distinctly Epicurean perspective. Thoughts welcomed on the episode and book. I think I'll need to add another to my reading list now.

Start 32:07, talking about Gal. 4:3, 8-9

This is the mention of the elements that comes up from time to time.

I've become a fan of Data Over Dogma, and this episode talks about Cicero, the gods, and implies what a revolution it really was for Epicurus to say the stars were not gods!

Fascinating stuff (to me)!

7 Ἔνδοξοι καὶ περίβλεπτοί τινες ἐβουλήθησαν γενέσθαι, τὴν ἐξ ἀνθρώπων ἀσφάλειαν οὕτω νομίζοντες περιποιήσεσθαι. ὥστε εἰ μὲν ἀσφαλὴς ὁ τῶν τοιούτων βίος, ἀπέλαβον τὸ τῆς φύσεως ἀγαθόν· εἰ δὲ μὴ ἀσφαλής, οὐκ ἔχουσιν οὗ ἕνεκα ἐξ ἀρχῆς κατὰ τὸ τῆς φύσεως οἰκεῖον ὠρέχθησαν.

• ἔνδοξος, δόξα 1. held in esteem or honour, of high repute, Xen., Plat. 2. of things, notable, Aeschin.: —adv. -ξως, hence Sup., ἐνδοξότατα Dem.
• περίβλεπτος. looked at from all sides, admired of all observers, Eur., Xen. περί-βλεπτος, ον

Ἔνδοξοι καὶ περίβλεπτοί = "the famous and admired"

ἐβουλήθησαν 3rd person indicative aorist of βούλομαι.

• usually stronger than ἐθέλω, implying choice or preference:
• (transitive, intransitive)
• to will, wish, be willing, want [+accusative = something]; [+infinitive = to do something]

• (transitive) to mean
  (intransitive) to pretend, claim [+infinitive = to do something]
• (transitive) to prefer [+accusative = something]; [+infinitive = to do something]; often with μᾶλλον ἤ or ἤ: over something else

• γενέσθαι. aorist middle infinitive of γίγνομαι
  • to come into being
  • (of people) to be born
    430 BCE – 354 BCE, Xenophon, Anabasis 1.1: Δαρείου καὶ Παρυσάτιδος γίγνονται παῖδες δύο Darius and Parysatis had two sons born to them.
  • (of things) to be produced
  • (of events) to take place
  • (followed by a predicate) to become
• ἀσφάλειαν ACC security, surety; certainty

I also got a kick out of the article title:

"Dating the Bible"

Oh, no, I wouldn't date the Bible. We're not compatible.

Welcome aboard!

Quote from Joshua

Correction; Ecclesiastes is not the last book of the Old Testament.

This Wikipedia article does a nice job of putting the books of the Bible into a chronological order of when they were written:

Dating the Bible - Wikipedia

Thought could be useful for this thread but also to put things into a historical perspective.

For anyone who wants the Greek:

DCLP/Trismegistos 865216 = LDAB 865216

Quote from Nate

In that regard, we might view KD6 as a refutation of a divine origin story of political authority.

I could see that interpretation.

There is no divine right of kings. It was more like people decided it would be good to have some kind of governing authority.

Quote from Don

To me, the first part to this could be paraphrased, in the **broadest** terms, as "For the sake of having no fear from other people, it was a natural good to institute authority and to be ruled by a government..." Still working on literal translations and the second part.

The second part, again paraphrased in the widest sense, seems to be: From this (ie, instituting authority and government), at one time, procured for oneself the confidence to have no fear of other people.

To me, Lucretius echoes this:

So next

Some wiser heads instructed men to found

The magisterial office, and did frame

Codes that they might consent to follow laws.

For humankind, o'er wearied with a life

Fostered by force, was ailing from its feuds;

And so the sooner of its own free will

Yielded to laws and strictest codes. For since

Each hand made ready in its wrath to take

A vengeance fiercer than by man's fair laws

Is now conceded, men on this account

Loathed the old life fostered by force. 'Tis thence

That fear of punishments defiles each prize

Of wicked days; for force and fraud ensnare

Each man around, and in the main recoil

On him from whence they sprung. Not easy 'tis

For one who violates by ugly deeds

The bonds of common peace to pass a life

Composed and tranquil.

5.1136

And...

Kings began

Cities to found and citadels to set,

As strongholds and asylums for themselves,

And flocks and fields to portion for each man

After the beauty, strength, and sense of each-

For beauty then imported much, and strength

Had its own rights supreme.

5.1105

Little Rocker : your post had some embed code that didn't seem to be working. I hope you don't mind I fixed it.

Quote from Cassius

That link to Aristotle's politics doesn't seem to work but might be useful for comparison.

Aristotle, Politics, Book 3, section 1285a

And

Aristotle, Politics, Book 2, section 1273a

Quote from Cassius

Don if you get a chance to supplement your post here that would also be helpful:

Post

RE: PD06 - Best Translation of PDO6 to Feature at EpicureanFriends.com

Greek text: Usener edition

6

ἕνεκα τοῦ θαρρεῖν ἐξ ανθρώπων ἦν κατὰ φύσιν ἀρχῆς καὶ βασιλείας ἀγαθόν, ἐξ ὧν ἄν ποτε τοῦτο οἷός τʼᾖ παρασκευάζεσθαι.

• Ἕνεκα
  • ἕνεκᾰ
    • (with genitive)
      • on account of, for the sake of, because of
      • with regard to, as far as regards, as for
• τοῦ θαρρεῖν
  • θαρσέω to be of good courage, take courage; confidence, audacity
    • θαρρεῖν present active infinitive
    • C. inf. to believe confidently that, Soph.; also, to make bold or venture to do, Xen.
• ἀρχῆς καὶ βασιλείας

…

Don

August 8, 2023 at 12:26 PM

Good call! Done!

To me, the first part to this could be paraphrased, in the **broadest** terms, as "For the sake of having no fear from other people, it was a natural good to institute authority and to be ruled by a government..." Still working on literal translations and the second part.

By Zeus, this one took forever to track down...

This one is Plut.69.13, also known as F, one of the three best manuscripts (BPF of which we have P and F digitized and available)...

And once again we clearly see αρχησ και βασιλειασ αγαθον

starting at the end of the first line...

.... ἕνεκα τοῦ θα

ρρεῖν ἐξ ανθρώπων ἦν κατὰ φύσιν ἀρχῆς

καὶ βασιλείας ἀγαθόν, ἐξ ὧν ἄν ποτε τοῦτο

οἷός τʼᾖ παρασκευάζεσθαι. and then the rest of that line.

Seems to me there is no doubt that the manuscript tradition clearly includes ἀρχῆς καὶ βασιλείας. I don't see it as a marginal note or some kind of text stuck in somewhere where there's a question as to whether or not to include it. It's right there, in every manuscript, as part of the text.

Now, the only outlier could theoretically be manuscript B, but P and F BOTH have that phrase included as part of the text. It seems to be the Bailey and possibly Usener were being too clever by half?? They knew better than every manuscript??

Here's Usener's commentary from Epicurea on KD6:

It appears he's trying to say that κατὰ φύσιν ἀρχῆς καὶ βασιλείας is "simply" a gloss of what ἐξ ὧν is referring to and must be unnecessary according to his reading. ὧν is the genitive plural of ὅς (genitive because it comes after the preposition ἐξ) which is simply means "who, which, that." So Usener is saying "leadership and lordship" are what "who, which, that" is referring to it seems.

I think it needs to be seen as part of the text and needs to be translated as written.

We're going to leave any actual translation work for tomorrow My work is done here for tonight!

PS:

glossēma: ătis, n., = γλώσσημα, an antiquated or foreign word needing explanation

glossema - Ancient Greek (LSJ)