Posts by Don

Quote from Cassius

Now we need to go back and integrate whether all pleasures are identical, or some are to be chosen over others, and how. Does the choice between pleasures hang only on whether a pleasure might bring some disturbance, or can one pleasure be so much more pleasing than another that it is worth choosing, even if choosing that greater pleasure brings some degree of disturbance?

Here's my quick take:

• Pleasure feels good. That's what makes it pleasure and not pain.
• Choiceworthiness is determined by consequences, both to oneself and how one is perceived by one's community and friends.
• "Does the choice between pleasures hang only on whether a pleasure might bring some disturbance." Yes.
• "Can one pleasure be so much more pleasing than another that it is worth choosing?" That's just another way of asking "What are the consequences of this pleasure vs that pleasure?"
• I continue to soapbox that we can have more confidence in accessing some pleasures than others (the infamous katastematic vs "kinetic" discussion).

Quote from Cassius

That seems like a VERY good idea. Take a passage you know by heart and express it in Greek lettering.

And one can do this by writing longhand or typing. I'll try to provide a brief guide to the various keyboards and fonts out there soon for those who want to be able to type in polytonic Greek. Anybody want to share their work? Post it here if you want to challenge other beginners to "decipher" it. I suggest writing as English words sound and not as they're spelled sometimes: υεν "when"; δισπλαι "display", etc. You can also puzzle through names to start acclimating to the alphabet: Επίκουρος, Μετροδορος, Αχιλλεύς, Σόκρατες, Πλατό, Οδυσσέας, Αθήνα, Αφροδίτη,...

Quote from Cassius

What about word order in Greek? Do we have the same issues of order and use of inflection that we have in Latin? Did the Greeks write long sentences and intentionally make you wait to the end of the sentence to find out what it is about like the Romans did?

Of course Greek is an inflected language, but this is a feature and not a bug. The genius of this is that a word can be placed first in the sentence for emphasis regardless of whether it's a direct object, subject, etc. I highly recommend the short book The Ingenious Language: Nine Epic Reasons to Love Greek by Andrea Marcolongo.

Quote from Cassius

if I did a screen shot of a Greek term I could upload it to Google Images and it will provide a translation. This is hugely useful to me

That is a good tip! I used that when I was working through the French of Les Epicuriens. Take a photo of the page, plug it into Google Translate.

Just keep in mind, however, that Google is going to translate it from *modern* Greek into English. This isn't necessarily an issue all the time, but the evolution of meanings has changed over the past 2,000+ years, so just be aware of that.

Y'all will notice I haven't mentioned Latin yet.

I am woefully remiss in learning Latin. I really like Luke Ranieri's Latin content on his channels, but I've had a long-lasting mental hurdle to get over for learning Latin.

In my youth, I remember sitting at my grandmother's kitchen table on the farm and her sharing that she still remembered the declension of agricola... agricolas... and so on from school.

I'm from German and Celtic stock, so the my hurdle involved seeing the Romans as the bad guys. Why would I want to learn their languages. But I've discovered Lucretius, Ovid, Vergil, Cicero (....shudder...), and the rest, so maybe it's time to hunker down.

Confession on my ancient Greek skills: Honestly, my skills are probably **just** good enough to get me in trouble. I've never gotten through an entire course. I rely on dictionaries and other tools. I cannot sit down and just *read* a Greek text on sight. So, I appreciate the confidence y'all have shown in me. I'm not going anywhere, but, I just wanted to say that if I can do this, y'all can, too. Let's all dig into the texts together!

Ανοθερ τιπ... Oh, sorry... Another tip:

Duolingo has a Greek course that includes an alphabet learning section. I'm currently on day 67 of the course.

But... And this is a big "but"... The language is modern Greek, not ancient or Koine Greek. So the grammar and pronunciation are modern. So, it can be helpful, but it's not a substitute for learning ancient or Koine Greek itself.

Note: I am NOT getting into the pronunciation "debate" here in this post! However, be aware that that is a HOT topic for modern Greeks. For now, stick to reading.

It probably goes without saying, but the first step for anyone wanting to learn Ancient Greek is simply sit down and learn the alphabet.

You'll need it to read.

You'll need it to look up words in dictionaries.

You'll need it to eventually pronounce words.

A fun way to practice is just write English words using the Greek letters like a code. It reinforces the system. in 7th grade, high school, through college, I'd take notes in class in Greek letters, and I still run across those notebooks in a drawer once in awhile.

Just sit down and do it.

Many are the same or at least similar. It just takes practice. Here's one to decipher:

Ι ΚΑΝ ΡΕΑΔ ΓΡΕΕΚ ΛΕΤΤΕΡΣ. ΛΟΟΚ ΑΤ ΘΑΤ!

btw, I own Dr. Austin's book as an ebook!

... And, full confession, I have NOT completely read all these the whole way through.

And I also just realized my Penguin copy of A.E. Stallings' On the Nature of Things* isn't on that shelf! I'll have to remedy that.

(*It's on the shelf. Just off the frame )

I'm starting this thread as a place for people to share their experiences in trying to learn the ancient languages and to share their go-to resources (print, online, in person). This will also be a place for people to ask questions about where to start, what worked, what didn't, etc. We'll deal with actual translation issues in their appropriate textual threads, but this can be a nuts and bolts "how-to" thread.

Quote from Cassius

I am regularly cutting and pasting from PDFs of books that have Greek words, but for some reason my PDF program does not pick up the Greek letters and turns it into gibberish.

That all has to do with how good the OCR of the PDF was done by whoever uploaded it.

Quote from burninglights

Just the LSJ and one free .edu site I signed up for that I can't even pronounce and haven't figured out how to use yet. It appears to run on the LSJ too. I'm definitely open to suggestions! I can't say I have grand ambitions, but it's nice to feel empowered enough to "check under the hood" when I have questions about translations and stuff.

*The* two best (i.e., easiest and free) ways to access the LSJ is to:

(a) Use the Perseus Digital Library for texts: ex. Diogenes Laertius, Book X - then look to the right for "Greek (R.D. Hicks, 1972) focus load" - click on "load" - that will give you the Greek text while maintaining the English. Click on ANY word in Greek, and it will open up a separate window with options to see definitions and declensions in the LSJ, Middle Liddell, Slater, and Autenrieth dictionaries.

(b) Open Wiktionary - https://www.wiktionary.org/ - copy and paste in any ancient Greek word - get a good solid basic definition (with sample declensions for nouns, conjugations for verbs!) - and link to the Perseus LSJ and other dictionaries.

That's all my secrets I'm divulging for tonight

PS. Okay, definitely check out Luke Rainieri's stuff online, especially his You Tube channels, ex.

Quote from burninglights

inspired me to take a first leap into ancient Greek today.

That's great!! This may involve starting another thread, but what resources are you using? I might have some suggestions, but only if you (or others) are interested.

Welcome aboard!

Quote from Pacatus

(But I still think my pulley metaphor was pretty good … )

Agreed!

That's a *great* post 16, Cassius !! Well said!

My 15 post was very much an experiment in stream of consciousness writing with a little editing after the fact. I'm okay with it for what it is.

I completely agree that "pleasure" is the North Star of Epicurus's philosophy. He defined it in *all-encompassing* terms precisely because he made it the guide of life. However...

I continue to read the texts as saying Epicurus and the ancient Epicureans taught the distinction of katastematic and "kinetic" pleasure as a practical expression of that all-encompassing nature, and that we can be more confident of always having access to katastematic pleasure than kinetic pleasures. However...

The recent in-depth discussions of "absence of pain = pleasure" have given me a new perspective on the katastematic/kinetic "debate." The health of the body and the tranquillity of the mind *is* katastematic pleasure. The "normal" functioning of freedom from pain in body and mind that has been discussed *is* katastematic pleasure. "Absence of pain" in the mind is literally ataraxia which Epicurus gives as an example of *a* katastematic pleasure. No matter what else is going on in our lives, we always have access to that health of the body and tranquility of the mind IF we allow it to happen, IF we have banished those fears, anxieties, worries that Epicurus taught stand in the way of experiencing *pleasure** in its all-encompassing joyful, delightful, calm, exciting, tranquil variations.

I need to note that I personally think "alpha and omega" or "a to z" is a bad translation of ἀρχὴν καὶ τέλος (arkhē kai telos). That "alpha and omega" phrase carries way too much Biblical baggage to be useful.

That's why I translate it as "the foundation and fulfillment" (of the blessed life).

Quote from Eoghan Gardiner

"Epicurean Philosophy teaches that absence of pain is pleasure"
"Ok, but isn't the goal of Epicureanism ataraxia and not pleasure? Also isn't the absence of pain just a tranquil state?"
How would you respond to someone like this?

The goal, the fulfillment, of a life of well-being consists of both the health of the body and the tranquility of the mind. The absence of pain in the body and of disturbance in the mind IS pleasure, because there are only two feelings we can experience: pleasure and pain. Being alive is to experience sensations, to FEEL things. At the most basic level, we either feel positive nurturing feelings, which we call pleasure; or negative harmful feelings, which we call pain. Within pleasure and pain, there are numerous shades and intensities of feeling; from ecstasy to serenity, from annoyance to agony.

But when we rid ourselves of the gnawing anxiety and the dreadful worry about death, divine retribution, and the like, we can have a tranquil mind, we can have "ataraxia." If we have tranquility of mind, we can FEEL our other positive feelings more clearly, untainted by the nagging worry that it'll all fade away. Once we rid ourselves of those fears and worries, when they are uprooted and torn from the ground of our mind, they can't grow back. We can then make better choices. We can pluck the ripe fruit of each moment and REALLY savor it. That is the goal of Epicureanism. If you say a tranquil mind - ataraxia - is the only goal and don't include the health of the body, you stop short of the fulfilling life that Epicurus offers. Yes, you NEED a tranquil mind free from anxiety and worry... but you also need a healthy body attached to that tranquil mind. The mind works through the body, and the body provides the mind with its seat. We are both a mind and a body, together, inseparable. Pleasure is the path but also the fulfillment of prudent choices and rejections. Tranquility - ataraxia - makes the sea calm for sailing. When other pleasures are encountered, they are welcomed but not greedily grasped. You are already at the fullness of pleasure! The horizon beckons with a variety of pleasures to experience. Sail off. You are already filled with pleasure, secure in your own self-reliance, your mind is strong and unassailable by worry, anxiety, fears, and dread. You've drank the wormwood through the honeyed rim. The medicine is sweet. The physician was correct. This is the way to live!

Quote from Pacatus

Don:

And "the beginning and the end" has a taint of "the alpha and omega" from Revelation.

Just don't take that analogy *too* far. You could just as easily use "the A and Z" which is what it literally is: the first and last letter of the alphabet. I see Hicks use of "alpha and omega" in his translation as simply referring to the foundation (the A, the alpha) and fulfillment (the Z, the omega).

Eikadistes : I'm trying out the older Epicurus as a profile pic, but if you'd rather not have that done, I'm happy to switch back to the 20er moon. Just say the word.

Quote from Kalosyni

Is this a reference to beginning and the end... does this mirror 'alpha and omega' in letter to Menoeceus?

That's an interesting idea. I don't think so, but I'm going to have to think about that some more to be convinced one way or the other.

For ease of reference, here's my commentary on that section of the letter:

Quote

A short digression is now in order to examine that phrase ἀρχὴν καὶ τέλος "the foundation and fulfillment, the beginning and end." Often, this is simply translated as "the beginning and the end" as if there's a starting line and a finish line. This is much deeper than that, although the running of a race could be one metaphor that could used. Let's first look at the word ἀρχὴν (accusative of ἀρχή).

• ἀρχή (arkhē)
  • English archeology "study of beginnings/origins" but also the -archy in monarchy, patriarchy, etc.

ᾰ̓ρχή carries the meaning of beginning, origin, foundation, the farthest point. It even took on the meaning of "the corners of a sheet" by the time the New Testament was being written (Acts 10:11). It also had the connotation of the "beginning of power" residing in a ruler, the "most important person" in a kingdom. It carries the idea of a foundational element or first principle. The alpha (first letter of the Greek alphabet) to τέλος's omega (the last letter of the Greek alphabet) which is how Hicks translated them.

τέλος (telos) carries the meaning of endings, the goal, completion, maturity, result, fulfillment, consummation. Where αρχή is the foundation, τέλος is the highest point. The definition of τέλος in LSJ is extensive! 

Αρχή is not quite as long but gives the nuance we're working with.

Therefore, to translate ἀρχὴν καὶ τέλος as "beginning and end" (every other translation I've seen except Hicks) misses a lot of deeper meaning. This phrase is one that I highly recommend giving more attention to in one's personal translation or at least being aware of when reading. We miss so much by not examining Epicurus's words. Always go back to the texts!

Quote from Cassius

In our meeting tonight Pacatus mentioned that the Greek might be chronos which might indicate a longer length of time than a moment? That's my paraphrase and I may have it wrong.

Ὁ αὐτὸς χρόνος (ho autos khronos) is a set phrase meaning "at the same time, simultaneously; literally, 'the time (is) the same', as in the events are happening at the same time."