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  1. EpicureanFriends - Home of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
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Posts by Don

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  • Daily life of ancient Epicureans / 21st Century Epicureans

    • Don
    • May 23, 2025 at 7:32 AM

    I'm late to the game here, but I'd offer that philosophy - as conceived of in the ancient schools - was always meant to be lived. One chose a school (or took a more eclectic approach as I'd argue Cicero does in certain ways), and lived one's life in accordance with what one learned from one's teacher and one's school: Stoic, Peripatetic, Platonic, Skeptic, Epicurean, etc. As time went on, "religion" moved into that sphere - I'm thinking especially of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism (although some call that a philosophy - depends on the flavor I suppose), especially when those major religions got the imprimatur of government authority... like when the Roman emperor decided it would behoove him to have one emperor, one religion, one empire kind of thing. Later, philosophy became (in the popular and academic mind) a "subject" one studied apart from living one's life. In more recent time, the ancient schools - I'd argue spearheaded by "Stoics" (and, yes, I'm putting it deliberately in quotes) - have seen a revival of sorts, including philosophical counseling. Our little corner of the internet is one of the ways Epicurus' philosophy is part of that renewal, revival, and renaissance.

    As far as ...

    Quote from Robert

    As 21st-century Epicureans, how do you integrate it into your daily life? Is there any particular structure or set of practices involved?

    I try to incorporate the personal responsibility of choice/rejection in light of pleasure/pain. I try to keep perspective when it comes to the temporary nature of pain (NOT always easy in the moment!!). I try to ingrain VS35 in my thinking:

    35. Don't ruin the things you have by wanting what you don't have, but realize that they too are things you once did wish for. οὐ δεῖ λυμαίνεσθαι τὰ παρόντα τῶν ἀπόντων ἐπιθυμίᾳ, ἀλλʼ ἐπιλογίζεσθαι ὅτι καὶ ταῦτα τῶν εὐκταίων ἦν.

    I even have it hanging inconspicuously on my office door at work.

    Quote from Robert

    If I'm thirsty, and convince myself that I need to have soda, beer, or whatever, might that also be an example? After all, very often a glass of water will do just fine.

    On this point, yes, water would quench your thirst. But if the soda, beer, or whatever doesn't cause undue hardship to acquire or provide more pain than pleasure, I truly don't think Epicurus has any injunction against choosing that option. I regularly go back to the idea that Epicurus - on occasion - would limit himself to just enough simple food to gauge what amount it really took for him to live pleasurably, to be happy, so he would know that IF it was necessary to live on that amount, he could do it. Given whatever circumstances might come up in his life, he was confident in his ability to find pleasure IF it came down to it by experimenting from time to time in this way. I'm utterly convinced he did NOT live this way all the time.

    As others have mentioned, Epicurus took part in commemorations (rituals) of his own birthday, his family's, his friends, and took part in the large city festivals regularly. I think you can also incorporate an Epicurean mindset when taking part in holidays - even if you attend church services as pro forma with family. Epicurus and the early Epicureans took part in rituals and processions and other civic affairs that paid homage and sacrifice to the gods; but I'm convinced they were not (mentally) taking part the way most in the crowds were participating. They saw the gods differently, but could take pleasure in the festivities and even the sacrifices which were a part of every civic festival. So, enjoy our (American) secular festivities like Thanksgiving, or "religious/secular" events like Christmas.. but feel free to put your own Epicurean spin on things even its only to yourself.

  • ⟐ as the symbol of the philosophy of Epicurus

    • Don
    • May 22, 2025 at 6:17 AM

    That configuration immediately reminded me of...

    "Epicureanism, the final philosophy... Where no philosophy has gone before..."

  • ⟐ as the symbol of the philosophy of Epicurus

    • Don
    • May 21, 2025 at 1:23 PM
    Quote from Cassius
    Quote from Julia

    I'm willing to try – it's not like we need to invest our life savings or anything – and just see where we end up

    As Don would say BY ZEUS that's the kind of attitude we need here on lots of things!

    I appreciate the enthusiasm; but, honestly, I'm not sure what "trying" looks like in this context. I swear I don't want to be difficult. However, it seems to me we can't even come to a consensus on this thread. And if we did, what then? Everyone starts using it (is mandated to use it?) on social media. Everyone buys a hat or jewelry with THE symbol on it and starts wearing it? And how to get the Society of Epicurus to buy in? They're using the Tau/Phi combo symbol. It's a fun discussion, but I don't understand the logistics of getting something to the point of catching on.

  • ⟐ as the symbol of the philosophy of Epicurus

    • Don
    • May 21, 2025 at 6:59 AM

    FYI

    Thread

    Epicurean Rings / Jewelry / Coins / Mementos

    So the sources say that ancient Epicureans had votive busts and specifically mentions that they also wore RINGS with the likeness of Epicurus. Here is a sample I got of what an Epicurus ring would look like, as a possible product for my business thetwentiers.com. It's a small ring, but it expands, and the face of Epicurus does not fit entirely into it but it still looks like Epicurus. Do others think there is a market for this?
    Hiram
    April 22, 2019 at 6:38 PM

    I'd also bring up that saints' medals and crucifixes (with the body of Jesus) still are popular with the Catholic crowd, ex. https://www.smalldevotions.com/collections/catholic-medals

    Additionally, Julia , if you or anyone would like to wear a waning gibbous moon as a personal expression of a dedication to Epicurean philosophy, I think that would be great. The 20er moon is a nice graphic symbol. I just remain skeptical of the ability of our little forum to essentially vote (in the widest sense) on a new symbol to represent the school and to have it catch on. I could be wrong, but even in this thread there are a myriad of reactions to it. Unfortunately, the waning gibbous moon symbol *as a symbol* doesn't appear to have historical precedent for the school although the name "Twentier" was definitely applied historically to the Epicureans. The face of Epicurus does have historical foundations to being displayed by students of the school, enough so to even be mocked by Cicero (it was Cicero, right?).

  • Happy Twentieth of May 2025!

    • Don
    • May 20, 2025 at 9:07 PM

    Happy Eikas, hoi philoi kai hai philai!

  • ⟐ as the symbol of the philosophy of Epicurus

    • Don
    • May 20, 2025 at 6:57 PM
    Quote from Cassius
    Quote from Don

    I despise AI for artwork on a number of levels... But that's not bad. I'd certainly prefer someone using that as a prompt and not using that.

    Perhaps a typo there Don ? Not sure what you mean....

    Which part?

    1. I despise the use of AI for creating artwork (Copilot in this case) . It violates copyright with its ingestion of images from which to "learn." It deprives humans of exercising creativity.

    2. That said, it pains me to say "That's not bad." I can appreciate what it came up with, but the way it came up with it is the problem.

    3. If a human wanted to use that AI-generated image as a prompt to create a line drawing, I would find that preferable.

    4. In light of all that, I'd greatly prefer that particular AI-generated image NOT be used as "the symbol" of the school.

    That's my personal opinion.

  • ⟐ as the symbol of the philosophy of Epicurus

    • Don
    • May 20, 2025 at 6:13 PM

    I despise AI for artwork on a number of levels... But that's not bad. I'd certainly prefer someone using that as a prompt and not using that.

  • ⟐ as the symbol of the philosophy of Epicurus

    • Don
    • May 20, 2025 at 3:14 PM

    The American Atheists symbol.

    Our Logo
    An international symbol for atheism has long been needed. When American Atheists was formed in 1963, a contemporary scientific symbol was chosen; this…
    www.atheists.org
  • ⟐ as the symbol of the philosophy of Epicurus

    • Don
    • May 19, 2025 at 10:50 PM

    I'm going to go off on a bit of a tangent here, but it's adjacent to ...

    Quote from kochiekoch

    You'd have to promote your symbol!

    From my perspective (*broadly* generalizing to the point of stereotyping - there: caveat stated), the majority of humans - or at least *many* humans - don't like ambiguity. It's easier to live a world with cut and dried rules. Rules also make it easier to enforce a structure, a hierarchy, and in-group and an out-group. This also relates to this current thread...

    Thread

    What Makes Someone "An Epicurean?"

    In a nearby thread the question was raised about who should be considered to be an Epicurean. No one has the authority to give such a list, and probably no one after Epicurus himself, or the last head of the Epicurean school in Athens in the ancient world, ever had that authority. But we ought to give thought to what the key components of the philosophy are, so we can consider how many of them fit the person we're considering labeling as an Epicurean.

    My own first question is "Does the person…
    Cassius
    March 30, 2019 at 7:49 PM

    Epicurean philosophy, as it's advocated for on this forum (and I think the interpretation here is generally in the right direction), is big on ambiguity, personal responsibility, contextual application of practice, etc. One does not find a Ten Commandments, A Five Pillars, etc. There is no cosmic authority or priesthood asserting "my way or the highway." People who want to point to a prooftext for their position will find it a little more difficult in the extant writings. For these reasons, it will always be difficult to get a wide community. That said, I also think there are "levels" of understanding that could benefit people of many inclinations. The contextual nature of the philosophy also could lend itself to misunderstanding and shallower and deeper students. But then we get into the "no true Epicurean" would do ABC that we got into in the other thread linked above. Who gets to name the "true Epicureans"?

    Quote from kochiekoch

    He gets us! :D

    If we did have "He Gets Us" Super Bowl ads, what would that mean? IF we marketed WWED bracelets (What Would Epicurus Do? - It should be SFOTSE in my opinion but I digress), what *would* Epicurus do in any given situation (other than seek the most pleasure)? But what would that mean? And he "gets us"... what does that mean?

    Okay, I'm admittedly being a little provocative.

    From what I understand, Epicurus calls us:

    • to see the material universe for what it is: atoms and void (in the widest possible modern sense)
    • to understand there are no gods doling out punishment or gifts; our behavior is up to us, chance, or necessity
    • to judge every desire in light of pleasure and pain
    • to understand death exists only after we no longer exist; death is no thing for us because we aren't there when it is
    • to understand that justice is a man-made construct; "Natural justice is a symbol or expression of expediency, to prevent one man from harming or being harmed by another." There are no universal rights - only what agreements to neither willfully harm nor to be harmed that can be agreed to at any given time and place (This is the BIG difference between Epicureanism and Humanism. And, I admit, I still struggle with this one.)
    • And so on...

    Epicureanism has a lot of gray areas, not a lot of black and white answers. There is no "Thou shalt not" list. If someone is even interested if they would see a "He Gets Us" commercial or sees a WWED/SFOTSE bracelet, where do you start?? AxA 's meet-ups are a great real-world example of the benefits (and potential hazards) of opening up an Epicurean social gathering for discussion.

    I'm not saying it can't be done. I look at the way the Stoics have cornered the market for ancient philosophy reborn... So... I guess... if they can do it... Why not the Epicureans?

    LOL... I may have talked myself out of a pessimistic perspective... then again.... (insert more pondering here :/)

  • Episode 281 - TD12 - Is Pain The Greatest Evil - Or Even An Evil At All?

    • Don
    • May 19, 2025 at 4:56 PM

    FYI

    PD10....the evil of life. ...ὅ περ ἐστὶ τὸ κακόν. NOTE: NO"of life" just "THAT (περ adds emphasis) is the evil. (I would suggest τὸ κακόν has the same connotation as ταγαθον (tagathon) "the highest good.")

    PD28 Evil doesn't seem to be in the original. Hicks: 28. The same conviction which inspires confidence that nothing we have to fear is eternal or even of long duration, also enables us to see that even in our limited conditions of life nothing enhances our security so much as friendship. (See Eikadistes ' PD compilation too)

    PD34 Ἡ ἀδικία οὐ καθ᾽ ἑαυτὴν κακόν,

    In Menoikeus, the word translated evil is overwhelmingly κακός (kakos). Except for 125: οὐθὲν γάρ ἐστιν ἐν τῷ ζῆν δεινὸν τῷ κατειληφότι γνησίως τὸ μηθὲν ὑπάρχειν ἐν τῷ μὴ ζῆν δεινόν.

    For there is nothing terrible in living for the one who truly comprehends that there is nothing terrible in not living."

    The same word as the 4th line of the Tetraphatmakos.

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, κα^κός

    Wiktionary has 93 head words listed for this word from Woodhouse, S. C. (1910) English–Greek Dictionary: A Vocabulary of the Attic Language

    κακός - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

  • The Garland of Tranquility and a Reposed Life

    • Don
    • May 18, 2025 at 6:38 AM
    Quote from Joshua

    Cassius We may want to move these posts to a new thread.

    I believe Joshua is referring to these digressions on the three wheeled cart. Not exactly pertinent to the personal motto thread but a fascinating topic.

  • The Garland of Tranquility and a Reposed Life

    • Don
    • May 18, 2025 at 5:37 AM
    Quote from Bryan
    Quote from Don

    Glossarium

    Yes on page 677, Usener says "τρικαλίνδητος, τρικυλίνδητος. ac similiter τρικυμία dicta. Epicurus dicit 'paratus sum ad vos quocumque iubebitis me ut trochum praecipiti cursu volventem agere (trudere)'"

    So he takes it as as a colloquialism, but based on the wheel imagery.

    "Epicurus says 'I am ready to go wherever you order me to go, as if I were a little whirling at a headlong course (to push)'" (via Google Translate)

  • The Garland of Tranquility and a Reposed Life

    • Don
    • May 17, 2025 at 11:20 PM
    Quote from Joshua

    [footnote 35.] Clay (1998: 247), who offers the translation “on a three-wheeled cart,” stresses the writer’s “enthusiasm and warmth.”

    Clay 1998 is from Diskin Clay. Paradosis & Survival: Three Chapters in the History of Epicurean Philsophy. University of Michigan Press: Ann Arbor, 1998. p. 247.

    Quote from Diskin Clay

    ...the letter Epicurus wrote to Themista in Lampsacus, telling her that if she and Leonteus could not come to him, he would join them "on a three-wheeled cart" (τρικυλιστος) wherever they say. 51

    51. As the phrase is sometimes rendered; in his Loeb translation of Diogenes Laertius, R.D. Hicks renders the adjective "to spin thrice on my own axis." For a less enthusiastic interpretation, cf. Usener's Glossarium Epicureum, edd. M. Gigante and W. Schmid (Rome 1997) 677.

    The Usnener reference might be available from Bryan. Bryan Do I remember you have a copy of the Glossarium?

    I also saw:

    So, the spinning three times and intertwining could refer to some kind of dancing. After all, friendship dances round in a circle as in a chorus.

    For reference for the garland:

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, Κκ , κύκνοψις , κυ^λ-ιστός

    I like the garland idea but I'm also intrigued by the dance possibility. Garlands are usually stephanos?

  • The Garland of Tranquility and a Reposed Life

    • Don
    • May 17, 2025 at 5:39 PM
    Quote from Joshua

    More on garlands;

    On first blush, I like where you're going since it has that festive connotation.

    I'll get back to you ASAP

    PS I'm also at a craft beer festival so ...^^

  • Personal mottos?

    • Don
    • May 17, 2025 at 3:59 PM
    Quote from Joshua

    I'm curious to know what you've found from Clay,

    Definitely on my list of things to do. I was able to pick it up yesterday. On quick glance, he seems to entertain the 3-wheel cart but there's also footnote to the Glossarium Epicurean. I may have to hit Bryan up for a lookup.

  • Telling Time in Ancient Greece and Rome

    • Don
    • May 17, 2025 at 12:59 PM

    Fascinating video from Luke Ranieri

  • What Makes Someone "An Epicurean?"

    • Don
    • May 17, 2025 at 11:44 AM
    Quote from Cassius

    So I write just to emphasize that the "all we can" is limited to "under the present state of affairs," and that "present state of affairs" will almost certainly change.

    Although, the more Epicureans; the more likelihood of schisms and denominations. Three vs four legs is just the tip of the iceberg.

  • What Makes Someone "An Epicurean?"

    • Don
    • May 17, 2025 at 10:12 AM
    Quote from Kalosyni

    I'm pondering this question today (again)...of which there are two sides...1) "what would make me Epicurean" and 2) "what would make someone else Epicurean" or to "appear to be Epicurean" (such as people we know or characters in a movie).

    Revisiting Kalosyni 's post that revitalized this thread.

    My perspective is that both 1 and 2 hinge on motivation. We can't know someone else's (2) motivation. They can tell us, but we can't know what's really in their minds. That's why, I feel, we can assess behavior in others but not their motivation. Someone can say "I party because I'm an Epicurean, man!" We can ask "How did you feel the next day?" But we can't police (simply for lack of a better word) who calls themselves an Epicurean... Any more than Christians can't police who calls themselves a Christian.

    Now, for (1), that's another thing. If I call myself an epicurean simply because I like to eat fancy food, and drink fine wine, that's one thing and a very surface stereotype understanding of what that word means (hence my not capitalizing the word). But we can't forbid that usage. If, on the other hand, we decide - are motivated - to lean about this philosophy and to apply it to living our lives, we think of ourselves as Epicureans. Someone who lives a minimalist lifestyle may also honestly call themselves an Epicurean from another popular understanding of the actual philosophy. We here would tend to disagree with them, but can we - should we - try to make them stop? I'd say no. None of us have that authority. There is no "apostolic succession" from Epicurus to our time. And there could be denominations if there even were! The most we can do is try to get a deeper understanding of the philosophy out there and encourage sincere students of Epicurus.

  • ⟐ as the symbol of the philosophy of Epicurus

    • Don
    • May 17, 2025 at 8:48 AM
    Quote from kochiekoch

    The poet Lucretius, secular as he was, featured her prominently in his poem for that and other reasons.

    Yes, at least 14 times by name, and most prominently, of course, right at the start.

    https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/searchresults?target=en&inContent=true&q=Venus&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0131

    And the traditional gods are fine to use metaphorically. I always seem to go back to...

    ...whoso

    Decides to call the ocean Neptune, or

    The grain-crop Ceres, and prefers to abuse

    The name of Bacchus rather than pronounce

    The liquor's proper designation, him

    Let us permit to go on calling earth

    Mother of Gods, if only he will spare

    To taint his soul with foul religion.

  • What Makes Someone "An Epicurean?"

    • Don
    • May 17, 2025 at 7:50 AM
    Quote from Cassius

    So precision is generally a good idea. No true Epicurean would want to be less than clear!

    :D Well played! I see what you did there.:D

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