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Posts by Don

New Graphics: Are You On Team Epicurus? | Comparison Chart: Epicurus vs. Other Philosophies | Chart Of Key Epicurean Quotations | Accelerating Study Of Canonics Through Philodemus' "On Methods Of Inference" | Note to all users: If you have a problem posting in any forum, please message Cassius  

  • Toward A Better Understanding of Epicurean Justice And Injustice (With Examples of "Just" and "Unjust")

    • Don
    • April 6, 2021 at 7:16 AM
    Quote from Cassius

    When you say "the community needs...." you are making an observation that is no doubt true (organizations of any kind have a need to perpetuate their existence)

    As far as perpetuation of an organization's existence, Epicurus himself made explicit arrangements for the continuation of the Garden in his will.

    But I think the use of the word "organization" is wrong here. I would advocate consistently for terms like "community" "society" "civilization" that is the social medium/environment in which individuals live. Ancient Greeks were very concerned about how individuals lived in common. Those outside of common society were looked at with suspicion. That's why Greek ἴδιος idios meaning "private, separate, one's own" could give rise to the English word idiot. I think Epicurus is addressing these concepts in the last set of KDs.

    Quote from Cassius

    but I see nothing in the texts that indicate to me that Epicurus was in any way concerned with the needs of "organizations."

    Hmm. I see KD 31-40 concerned about nothing else except the interrelation among individuals, community, and "justice." We talk about the contextual and relative nature of the philosophy. These last KDs are *all* about justice as a contextual principle concerning how individuals interact in a society. There is no "justice" apart from that context. I'm going back and re-reading the posts on KD 31-38 and then working on 39 and 40, but that's my take on them in recollecting.

    Quote from Cassius

    It seems to me that Epicurus was focused on the issues of feelings - pleasure and pain - and only individual human beings have those feelings.

    Exactly. The majority of the KDs specifically focus on the individual, the use of the Canon, death (of the individual), etc., etc. But the individual doesn't exist in a vacuum. How do we live in community (whether it's Athens or the Garden)? Epicurus addresses this in 31-40. He set out an entire system from atoms to the cosmos and *everything* in between. Book V in Lucretius addresses the rise of humans and civilization and so this discussion of what justice is seems to fit right into that.

    Quote from Cassius

    Now he might have been referring to organizational concepts as a part of showing how they are obstacles to pleasure, as he referred to false religions and false philosophies, so it is a possibility that he was singling out "justice" for attention given its status as one of the classic "virtues" which are elevated to ends in themselves.

    Bingo (in part)! If your community has no justice and is just "red in tooth and claw" or even "nasty, brutish, and short" you're going to have a hard time living a pleasurable life. I think this is why your fav Atticus could justify his resistance to developments in his society. He felt that direction didn't provide for the context of living a pleasurable life and so fought to restore peace and safety/stability.

    To your second point, I think Epicurus was singling out justice because it was/is necessary for living a pleasurable life. That's why he can say living justly, wisely, and nobly is living pleasurably and vice versa. If we get along with our fellow members of our community and feel safe, we have a better chance of living pleasurably. Therefore, "not doing harm and not being harmed" are the most basic "natural" definition of justice. It's not imposed by a god or even Nature but is the foundational agreement among individuals upon which civilization itself is built.

  • Peter Abelard and Reconciling Epicurean Philosophy with Christianity through Dialogue

    • Don
    • April 6, 2021 at 6:35 AM
    Quote from Godfrey

    Don would you consider Ehrman some sort of Epicurean? Maybe of the Gassendi variety? He seems to have adopted Epicurus' physics to some extent, but I'm curious what his ethical ideas are like.... He does sound quite interesting.

    I think he's "Epicurious" in that he's accepted a material worldview and doesn't believe in an eternal, supernatural life after death. He started out Christian fundamentalist and now considers himself agnostic I believe. This is the first time I've seen him explicitly use Epicurus and Lucretius by name although I was explicitly doing a Google search for that this time.

    His professional work has been on the history of Christianity and specifically on the textual history of the Bible. All his books are both scholarly and highly readable.

  • Peter Abelard and Reconciling Epicurean Philosophy with Christianity through Dialogue

    • Don
    • April 5, 2021 at 11:18 PM

    Speaking of Dr. Bart Ehrman, I found this interesting:

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/is-ame…heaven-and-hell

    Quote

    [Ehrman] maintains as well that he has fewer problems with non-existence than he once had, in part because he has internalized the teachings of Epicurus and Lucretius.

  • Toward A Better Understanding of Epicurean Justice And Injustice (With Examples of "Just" and "Unjust")

    • Don
    • April 5, 2021 at 9:37 PM

    Just checking KD 31-38... The word pleasure ηδονή or its synonyms or variants do not appear in them, which makes sense. Like I said above, pleasure has to do with individual humans. I am coming to the idea that "justice" "civilized behavior" has to do with providing individual human beings the most conducive environment in which to live the most pleasurable life. An environment - a community - which allows humans to make the choices and rejections that lead to a pleasurable life based on the Canon. The community must uphold the criteria of "not being harmed and not doing harm": the most basic agreement for a just/civilized community no matter the size: a band of Neanderthals living in a cave to a nation like the US and so on. Acts between people must uphold that agreement. Acts between nations must uphold that agreement... Where that agreement exists! That's the tricky part of these KDs.

    But the community needs to be peaceful and stable. Justice maintains this peace and stability. Unjust acts need to be punished to maintain that peace and stability. Epicurus seems to rely heavily on one's conscience to get the person to not engage in unjust acts for fear of getting caught and of punishment. But the last two KDs may also figure into this. So, that's where I'll be going next.

    However, y'all feel free to comment on these thoughts, too.

  • Toward A Better Understanding of Epicurean Justice And Injustice (With Examples of "Just" and "Unjust")

    • Don
    • April 5, 2021 at 1:38 PM

    I'm wondering if there is an analogy with "civil" and "criminal" offenses? I'm not a lawyer (but I know someone who is ;) ), but it seems both of those arenas have to do with seeking justice for injured (harmed) parties. If either civil or criminal offenses go unpunished, that harms society as a whole as in those acts become sanctioned by not being punished and so are detrimental to the community.

    What are your thoughts on that route?

  • Toward A Better Understanding of Epicurean Justice And Injustice (With Examples of "Just" and "Unjust")

    • Don
    • April 5, 2021 at 11:33 AM
    Quote from Cassius

    but the basic point you are making is that we should consider justice to be an entirely "civil" concept and maybe use words like "fairness" for strictly personal relations ?

    :) Maybe... So, how do you define the difference between "justice" and "fairness" then? Is there any if we go back to the criteria of "not being harmed & not causing harm"? What are you thinking of as "strictly personal relations"?

  • Toward A Better Understanding of Epicurean Justice And Injustice (With Examples of "Just" and "Unjust")

    • Don
    • April 5, 2021 at 11:22 AM

    So, my understanding is that "justice" is concerned with *interactions* between and among individuals as it affects the stability and peace of the community. As such, there are any number of interactions between two people that would fall under that purview.

  • Toward A Better Understanding of Epicurean Justice And Injustice (With Examples of "Just" and "Unjust")

    • Don
    • April 5, 2021 at 11:04 AM
    Quote from Cassius

    . By this point, there is no "justice" in the actions between two individuals alone.

    I wouldn't go that far.

    Scenario: If someone kills someone else, that's "only" an interaction between two people, but it has ramifications for the community as a whole. Party A caused harm to party B, therefore - under this criteria of justice -, that is not an act of civilized behavior, it is not δίκαιος, and so is worthy of punishment.

  • Toward A Better Understanding of Epicurean Justice And Injustice (With Examples of "Just" and "Unjust")

    • Don
    • April 5, 2021 at 10:30 AM

    To jumpstart this discussion again, I had the following thoughts on my way to work today:

    Pain and pleasure, the senses, and the prolepses are the criteria for making personal decisions on what is choice-worthy and what is not.

    Justice is not concerned with the personal but the community. Civilization/society/community is not a person or being. Therefore, "it" does not have access to the Canon.

    Therefore, pleasure and pain on a personal level doesn't enter into the criteria of what is just or righteous.

    The criteria for justice is "not being harmed or not causing harm" which of we wanted a metaphorical civilized Canon *could* equate to "pleasure" (not being harmed) and "pain" (not causing harm) with the understanding that this is only a metaphor.

    Therefore, the personal pleasure or pain that the individual experiences has no bearing on whether an action is just or not.

    Discuss...

  • Thomas Cooper MD

    • Don
    • April 4, 2021 at 7:15 PM
    Quote from Cassius

    more aggressive than even Thomas Paine on religion.

    Wow! Okay, you've piqued my interest!!

  • Peter Abelard and Reconciling Epicurean Philosophy with Christianity through Dialogue

    • Don
    • April 4, 2021 at 5:27 PM

    Oh

    Quote from Cassius

    I'm afraid Don is going to be a little disappointed though, if he thinks there's going to be a lot on Plato.

    :) it's okay, I didn't expect Plato. I'm a fan of Bart's from way back.

    I find the parallels between the original Jewish teaching and Epicurus's philosophy somewhat surprising. I was just reading the Lucretius text for next week's podcast, and he speaks about the soul and mind not being able to exist outside the body. That seems to be what Ehrman is saying about Jesus's beliefs. Now, Epicurus didn't believe in any possibility of a resurrection, but that whole "the soul ceases to exist after death" is reminiscent of Epicurus.

    We have to be careful about the Jewish and Roman responsibility for Jesus's execution. The Romans became increasingly "exonerated" when it became increasingly necessary to court Roman favor or at least tolerance of Christians. The Jewish Sanhedrin would have had no power to execute. And the Romans had no interest in intra-religious doctrinal squabbles. Rome was all-powerful. Jesus appears to have been, in their eyes, a rabble-rouser and, and if the episode with the money changers in the temple and his entrance into Jerusalem can be believed, a danger to the social order. He got arrested - probably for sedition and disturbing the peace, got tortured and whipped as per Roman custom, and got summarily executed and left to rot on the cross as an example to others. "Don't be going around talking about the coming destruction of the world - OUR Roman world, by the way - and expect us to look the other way. This is how you'll end up! Got it?!"

  • Peter Abelard and Reconciling Epicurean Philosophy with Christianity through Dialogue

    • Don
    • April 4, 2021 at 4:13 PM
    Quote from Godfrey

    From today's paper, an op-ed about how Christians came to believe in an immortal soul, from a professor of religious studies. (Spoiler alert: it has roots in Plato's deception and trickery....) Personally, I was unaware of how late it came about.

    https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/…eaven-hell-soul

    Oh! It's by Bart Ehrman! I have great respect for his work. His books are very readable and still scholarly. He has a wonderful informal delivery in his talks as well. Looking forward to reading the article!!

  • Podcast episode on Herculaneum archeology and technology involved in attempting to read the scrolls

    • Don
    • April 3, 2021 at 4:21 PM
    Quote from Godfrey

    https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6L…_cD0xMDE2?ep=14

    LOL! You beat me to it, Godfrey ! I just listened to this the other day. Fascinating!

  • Toward A Better Understanding of Epicurean Justice And Injustice (With Examples of "Just" and "Unjust")

    • Don
    • March 30, 2021 at 9:04 AM
    Quote from Cassius

    You know, this part of the discussion reminds me that I intentionally entitled the thread "With examples of Just and unjust" and I am not sure we've made much progress on that :)

    Oh, it's coming ;) Be patient.

  • Toward A Better Understanding of Epicurean Justice And Injustice (With Examples of "Just" and "Unjust")

    • Don
    • March 30, 2021 at 8:18 AM

    For example, I'm assuming there were rules governing social interactions in the Garden of Epicurus so there could be "just" and "unjust" actions there... unless the rules governing social interactions there were those of the larger polis of Athens especially in light of Epicurus's embrace of taking part in the civic religious celebrations of the city-state.

  • Toward A Better Understanding of Epicurean Justice And Injustice (With Examples of "Just" and "Unjust")

    • Don
    • March 30, 2021 at 7:50 AM
    Quote from Cassius

    you're thinking that while we use the word "just" or "justice" to describe some types of dealings between any two people in most any context, Epicurus was limiting it to a more "organized society" context?

    I'll have to think about that, but I do think the social component is very important in the philosophy. And where do your two hypothetical people exist? Are they members of a community? What "rules" or "laws" govern their interaction?

  • Toward A Better Understanding of Epicurean Justice And Injustice (With Examples of "Just" and "Unjust")

    • Don
    • March 30, 2021 at 7:24 AM

    συμπολιτευομένων

    sympoliteuomenōn

    "to live as fellow-citizens or members of one state" also mid., οἱ συμπολιτευόμενοι "one's fellow-citizens"

    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l…0:chapter=1&i=1

    My note: The word incorporates συμ- sym- "together" (English sympathy, synergy, symmetrical, etc.) and πόλις polis (Anc. Greek "city-state", English political). That's what Aristotle meant when he said "Man is a political animal" i.e., one that naturally belongs in a polis, a social community (so, a more accurate translation of that is "man is a social animal.") All these KDs have to do with community, mutual benefit, civilized behavior within a social compact, laws, etc. The whole idea of dikaios has no meaning outside that framework it seems. Dikaios "justice/civilized behavior" has no meaning outside civilization or at least a mutually-agreed-upon social network.

  • Toward A Better Understanding of Epicurean Justice And Injustice (With Examples of "Just" and "Unjust")

    • Don
    • March 30, 2021 at 12:27 AM

    Onto KD 38...

    Another long one and the last of the δίκαιος-related KDs, although 39 and 40 have relation to living in a community. We'll probably take a look at those as well before circling back around to thornier issues related to "justice" and "civilized behavior." I've tried to use some of the same translations that show up here as well as in the earlier KDs.

    KD 38: Ἔνθα μὴ καινῶν γενομένων τῶν περιεστώτων πραγμάτων ἀνεφάνη μὴ ἁρμόττοντα εἰς τὴν πρόληψιν τὰ νομισθέντα δίκαια ἐπ’ αὐτῶν τῶν ἔργων, οὐκ ἦν ταῦτα δίκαια. ἔνθα δὲ καινῶν γενομένων τῶν πραγμάτων οὐκ έτι συνέφερε τὰ αὐτὰ δίκαια κείμενα, ἐνταῦθα δὲ τότε μὲν ἦν δίκαι’, ὅτε συνέφερεν εἰς τὴν πρὸς ἀλλήλους κοινωνίαν τῶν συμπολιτευομένων· ὕστερον δ’ οὐκ ἦν ἔτι δίκαια, ὅτε μὴ συνέφερεν.

    Let's break this down...

    38.1 Ἔνθα μὴ καινῶν γενομένων τῶν περιεστώτων πραγμάτων ἀνεφάνη μὴ ἁρμόττοντα εἰς τὴν πρόληψιν τὰ νομισθέντα δίκαια ἐπ’ αὐτῶν τῶν ἔργων, οὐκ ἦν ταῦτα δίκαια.

    "When surrounding circumstances have not changed and what deeds had appeared 'civilized' do not appear to fit the preconception of civilized behavior, then those were not 'civilized.'"

    The ἔργων here is sometimes translated as "things" but that strikes me as such a non-descriptive term as to be unhelpful. Things are also used to translate some of the nominalized words, so that's not helpful. Hicks translates it as laws but there is no νόμον here. Epicurus Wiki uses "practice. I've used "deeds". Here is the LSJ entry http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…7:entry=e)/rgon

    I've also used "circumstances" again to translate πραγμάτων as in KD 37.

    38.2 ἔνθα δὲ καινῶν γενομένων τῶν πραγμάτων οὐκ έτι συνέφερε τὰ αὐτὰ δίκαια κείμενα,

    Note the parallel writing style again between this part and the previous one. We'll try and approximate this in our translation:

    "But when the times do change and circumstances that were civilized no longer bring mutual benefit,

    38.3 ἐνταῦθα δὲ τότε μὲν ἦν δίκαι’, ὅτε συνέφερεν εἰς τὴν πρὸς ἀλλήλους κοινωνίαν τῶν συμπολιτευομένων·

    "... then, on the one hand, they were 'civilized' when they brought mutual advantage among companions living as fellow-citizens or members of one state;..."

    38.4 ὕστερον δ’ οὐκ ἦν ἔτι δίκαια, ὅτε μὴ συνέφερεν. "...on the other hand, when later it no longer brought a mutual benefit, then it was no longer civilized behavior."

    Let's bring it all back together...

    "When surrounding circumstances have not changed and what deeds had appeared 'civilized' do not appear to fit the preconception of civilized behavior, then those were not 'civilized.' But when the times do change and circumstances that were civilized no longer bring mutual benefit, then, on the one hand, they were 'civilized' when they brought mutual advantage among companions living as fellow-citizens or members of one state; on the other hand, when later they no longer brought mutual benefit, then they were no longer civilized behavior."

    This again emphasizes the contextual nature of civilized, orderly behavior, what we have called "justice" before. The primary criteria here seems to be whether laws or deeds bring mutual advantage or benefit to those living as members of a state. As long as that's the case, it's "just." Is that how we define justice now? Is that a recognizable definition of "justice"? "Civilized, orderly behavior that confers mutual benefit to parties"? What in the past could have conferred mutual benefit but no longer does? Remember, it's mutual benefit to not harm or to be harmed. But then we have to consider the earlier KD that talked about the power to or desire to enter into mutual agreements.

    Thoughts?

  • Big Think Video on Free Will

    • Don
    • March 29, 2021 at 10:10 PM

    Several modern philosophers and scientists provide their perspectives on Free Will:

    https://bigthink.com/videos/the-great-free-will-debate

  • Toward A Better Understanding of Epicurean Justice And Injustice (With Examples of "Just" and "Unjust")

    • Don
    • March 28, 2021 at 9:03 PM

    Onto KD 37 (Those is a long one!)

    Τὸ μὲν ἐπιμαρτυρούμενον ὅτι συμφέρει ἐν ταῖς χρείαις τῆς πρὸς ἀλλήλους κοινωνίας, ἔχει τὸν τοῦ δικαίου χαρακτῆρα, ἐάν τε τὸ αὐτὸ πᾶσι γένηται ἐάν τε μὴ τὸ αὐτό. ἐὰν δὲ νόμον θῆταί τις, μὴ ἀποβαίνῃ δὲ κατὰ τὸ συμφέρον τῆς πρὸς ἀλλήλους κοινωνίας, οὐκέτι τοῦτο τὴν τοῦ δικαίου φύσιν ἔχει. κἂν μεταπίπτῃ τὸ κατὰ τὸ δίκαιον συμφέρον, χρόνον δέ τινα εἰς τὴν πρόληψιν ἐναρμόττῃ, οὐδὲν ἧττον ἐκεῖνον τὸν χρόνον ἦν δίκαιον τοῖς μὴ φωναῖς κεναῖς ἑαυτοὺς συνταράττουσιν ἀλλ’ εἰς τὰ πράγματα βλέπουσιν.

    Let's break this down:

    KD 37: section 1

    Τὸ μὲν ἐπιμαρτυρούμενον ὅτι συμφέρει ἐν ταῖς χρείαις τῆς πρὸς ἀλλήλους κοινωνίας, ἔχει τὸν τοῦ δικαίου χαρακτῆρα, ἐάν τε τὸ αὐτὸ πᾶσι γένηται ἐάν τε μὴ τὸ αὐτό. ...

    "On the one hand, that which has been confirmed by evidence and observation to bring mutual advantage among companions has the qualities which identify 'civilized behavior' (justice), whether or not it is the same for everyone." ... (See KD 36)

    That first word in this KD is very important, both to the meaning of this Doctrine and the philosophy as a whole: Το ἐπιμαρτυρούμενον "that which has been confirmed by evidence and observation; that which has been witnessed." That middle part -μαρτυρ- -martyr- is the origin of the English martyr which literally means "a witness (to what one believes)"

    Moving on, after the μὲν... we expect to find the contrasting δὲ... Remember, these two must come second in the phrase but are translated as if they come first.

    KD 37: section 2

    ἐὰν δὲ νόμον θῆταί τις, μὴ ἀποβαίνῃ δὲ κατὰ τὸ συμφέρον τῆς πρὸς ἀλλήλους κοινωνίας, οὐκέτι τοῦτο τὴν τοῦ δικαίου φύσιν ἔχει. ...

    "On the other hand, let's say a law were to be enacted bringing results not in accord with what brings mutual advantage among companions, then it would not have the natural form or constitution of 'civilized behavior' (τὴν τοῦ δικαίου φύσιν)...

    The natural form or constitution of 'civilized behavior' (τὴν τοῦ δικαίου φύσιν) as we've seen is (a) what brings mutual advantage to all parties involved, (b) protects parties from harm, and (c) prohibits parties from harming each other.

    It's important to note that the subjunctive mood is used here. For some context on that:

    https://ancientgreek.pressbooks.com/chapter/46/ Basically, the subjunctive is used to express hypotheticals. Cassius may say that that should be my favorite verbal mood ;) I'm proposing here a shorthand way of emphasizing this as "Let's say that X happens..."

    It may also be helpful to review the LSJ entry for φύσις (φύσιν) http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…57:entry=fu/sis Again, I'm trying to disrupt the baggage of English "nature/natural."

    KD 37: section 3

    ...κἂν μεταπίπτῃ τὸ κατὰ τὸ δίκαιον συμφέρον, χρόνον δέ τινα εἰς τὴν πρόληψιν ἐναρμόττῃ, ...

    "And, let's say, if what brings advantage according to 'civilized behavior' (τὸ κατὰ τὸ δίκαιον συμφέρον) were to change and for a specific period of time, let's say, it fit our 'anticipation' (πρόληψις prolepsis) [of civilized behavior/justice],...

    KD 37: section 4

    ... οὐδὲν ἧττον ἐκεῖνον τὸν χρόνον ἦν δίκαιον τοῖς μὴ φωναῖς κεναῖς ἑαυτοὺς συνταράττουσιν ἀλλ’ εἰς τὰ πράγματα βλέπουσιν.

    "...there was nothing inferior about that for that period of time and it was 'civilized behavior' at least for those who are not confounded, greatly troubled, or much distressed by meaningless words (i.e., by a lot of blah-blah-blah) but who look into the circumstances and conditions."

    συνταράττουσιν "confounded, greatly troubled, or much distressed" is an interesting word because it incorporates the stem that also gives rise to ataraxia: ταράσσω >> α-ταράσσω >> αταραξία. So, it's just not saying those who are confused by a lot of empty words but those who are confused and greatly troubled by them. And the goal is to live a pleasurable life not a life characterized by a troubled mind.

    This again seems to emphasize the relative, contextual nature of the philosophy. There's no absolute. Look at the conditions and circumstances and use your prolepsis and your knowledge of the criteria of "civilized behavior" to determine if the changed circumstances allow for that specific law or action to be considered "righteous" or "civilized." I'm specifically thinking of Pres. Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus during the Civil War. Was it just? I'm not giving an answer, just posing the question.

    So, to bring all our alternative translation together:

    On the one hand, that which has been confirmed by evidence and observation to bring mutual advantage among companions has the qualities which identify 'civilized behavior', whether or not it is the same for everyone. On the other hand, let's say a law were to be enacted bringing results not in accord with what brings mutual advantage among companions, then it would not have the natural form or constitution of 'civilized behavior.' And, let's say, if what brings advantage according to 'civilized behavior' were to change and for a specific period of time, let's say, it fit our prolepsis of 'civilized behavior,' there was nothing inferior about that for that period of time and it was 'civilized behavior' at least for those who are not greatly confused and troubled by meaningless words but who look into the circumstances and conditions.

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