Posts by Don

Quote from Paquin

I'm finally seeing that the choice of poetic form is a wonderful one, that promotes the reader's enjoyment of the text. I admit to a slight nose-wrinkle at the idea of combining an Epicurean textbook with poetry before setting off, but now I'm hooked

I know exactly what you mean. I was skeptical at first as well, but there is some wonderful wordsmithing and imaginative metaphors in both Lucretius's Latin and the various translations. I have an affinity for the Stallings translation since hers is the first one I read through completely. I have a marked-up, underlined, marginally-noted paperback copy I, too, only have the most rudimentary Latin but I've found the Perseus Digital Library to be an indispensable resource with each word of the Latin text clickable! http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…%3D1%3Acard%3D1

Paquin : You've hit on one of the most complex, confusing, intriguing, and fascinating issues in Epicurus's philosophy: the nature of the gods and our proper attitude toward "them." If you're interested in diving into the deep end, you might be interested in the discussion we had on Philodemus's work, On Piety: Philodemus On Piety

Quote from ResponsiblyFree

The FIRST use of PHYSICAL force by one human being against another including his voluntarily acquired property, is the ONLY Human Action that must be prohibited, considered immoral, wrong, evil in all circumstances except to save that person’s physical life in the moment (e.g., physically stopping a child, a blind or mentally disabled person from wandering out into traffic).

From my perspective and understanding, taking out the morality clause gets it *closer* to an Epicurean social contract of "neither to harm nor be harmed." But I'll be interested to see others' ideas.

Uh... Cassius , you've posted the Episode 79 recording again?

I was unaware of this idea previously, so I'm curious to read what everyone thinks is the connection between this NAP concept has to Epicurus's basic "natural justice" contract of "neither harm nor be harmed."

However, Cassius is correct in that it can't take precedence over pleasure/living a pleasurable life. It can at most be instrumental like virtue.

I'm skeptical of the Northern Lights, but if I remember correctly (source amnesia) there's a section that talks about the stars being fed by some source of fire in the heavens.

Yeah, I think Lucretius is just poetically describing the shell surrounding the geocentric "world" we live in. Epicurus was able to break beyond that wall (NOT literally!) and discern the natural, material workings of the Universe.

Interesting catch!

The Leonard translation at Perseus has: "The flaming ramparts of the world."

In the Loeb Classics translation, there's a note: "Lucretius refers to the fiery belt around our world (see also 2.1144, 5.454) but also is picturing Epicurus as a general successfully storming the walls and setting them ablaze."

Here's the Latin line:

processit longe flammantia moenia mundi

I'm wondering if the "flammantia moenia mundi" (the flaming/burning walls of the world) is simply a poetic way of describing the heavens with all their stars that surrounds our "world" and separates it from the rest of the universe.

At some point, I'll try and go through and give the citations for the E7, 15F, etc. Those are primarily ancient text references that I can simply provide the citations for. I don't feel I can copy and share that entire section but I felt sharing the 5 pages was well within copyright bounds.

That being said, I find Long and Sedley's interpretation to be sophisticated, intellectually satisfying, well within Epicurus's overall philosophy, and practical.

Not sure who's seen this, but here is Long and Sedley's notes on the gods in their The Hellenistic Philosophers.

Quote from Cassius

What makes absence of pain so difficult is more a practical difficulty of obtaining and maintaining that status. But some of us surely come closer than others, and the possibility that under some conditions all obstacles might be overcome seems to be one of the conceptual or preconceptual attributes of what we would identify as godlike.

Exactly. That's one of my arguments for the idealist model of the gods. They don't/can't exist as physical entities but do exist as concepts of a perfect life, totally free from pain, totally imbued with unshakable pleasure. That can't exist in the physical world. There will *always* be blows in the real world if only by chance and not choice.

Quote from Godfrey

For me, PD4 becomes becomes clearer when not separated from PD3.

It is important to remember that there are no numbers in Diogenes Laertius' section containing the Principal Doctrines. That numbering is only convention.

Quote from Godfrey

Practically speaking, I think that we pursue pleasure in the realm of individual, sequential choices and avoidances and that PD4 is addressing this while the removal of all pain in PD3 is a pleasantly abstract ideal.

Just be careful using those last two words. There's some round these parts with a strong reaction to the phrase "abstract ideal." But I think I know where you're coming from.

Food for thought! Thanks!

Quote from Cassius

Further on the implications of the word "virtue" is not the Latin form grounded in the implications of "strength"?

I don't know who this person is that posted this, but I thought this was interesting: http://www.john-uebersax.com/plato/words/arete.htm

You're right about the Latin "virtus"

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…59:entry=virtus

It's related to "vir" meaning man.

Trivia: it's pronounced [wir] which is where werewolf comes from.

Quote from Godfrey

As for PD5, prudence (or wisdom) and justice are pretty clear but I'm not sure what to make of "honor." It seems like there may be a better word for that.

One of the difficulties with PD5 is that the word used is καλώς, the adverbial form of καλός (kalos). Two give an idea of the wide -although positive - concept conveyed by that word, here are some viable translations:

admirable, artistic, auspicious, beautiful, buxom, comely, creditable, elegant, estimable, excellent, exquisite, fair, favourable, fine, fortunate, good, goodly, handsome, happy, high-principled, honourable, hopeful, lovely, lucky, noble, ornamental, picturesque, plausible, principled, promising, propitious, reputable, righteous, skilful, virtuous, well-favoured

It's important to remember that the word often translated as "virtue" in the Greek is αρετή aretē http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…7:entry=a)reth/ St-Andre (and others) sometimes use the word "excellence" because to him "virtue" had a Victorian air about it. Wikipedia has a nice intro: This excerpt especially is interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arete?wprov=sfla1 "this notion of excellence was ultimately bound up with the notion of the fulfillment of purpose or function: the act of living up to one's full potential." Anyway, "virtue" can be misleading although it gets complicated with all the Greek philosophers using αρετή ... However, maybe they were talking about the same thing and different perspectives.

All that being said, I am fine with considering Epicurean "excellences" of:

Frugality (living within one's means)

Tranquility (ataraxia is a pleasure, too)

Frankness (honest speech, sincerity?)

Justice (neither harm nor being harmed)

And others, but for now, consider that my contribution to this conversation.

Haven't looked at the results yet but thought y'all might find these interesting:

https://founders.archives.gov/index.xqy?q=Pr…=1511211111&r=1

Quote from Godfrey

Quote

PD2: Death is nothing to us; for what has disintegrated lacks awareness, and what lacks awareness is nothing to us. (Peter Saint-Andre translation)

Exercise: visualize your death in detail: physical feelings, surroundings, smells, sounds, mental state, thoughts. Make it personal, not abstract.

Notes: Two ways of doing this are:

- to visualize dying well

- to visualize random ways in which you might die.

Either way, be aware of the feelings this stimulates in you as to how you should live your life and how you define pleasure for yourself in this context.

NB: Do NOT do this exercise if you are feeling any symptoms of depression.

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If I may expand on Godfrey 's excellent idea and incorporate some of the "control" features I mentioned earlier:

Visualize your death in various scenarios, some quick and unexpected: a car accident, a fatal heart attack, etc. What would be your final thoughts? Could you make your last thought pleasurable? Would you be able to recollect your life with joy? Could you "leave life crying aloud in a glorious triumph-song that [you] have lived well."

One interesting Buddhist saying I remember is:

If you were to fall to your death from a great height, it would be a shame to not enjoy the view on the way down.

That strikes me as almost Epicurean in the sense of taking pleasure in each moment of life... Right up until the end.

Visualize your death in various scenarios, others long and debilitating. What could you recollect to bring joy? Are you creating pleasurable memories now to recollect in the future? This seems to me to be the more difficult scenario. I sometimes have a hard time accepting PD4. Theoretically, yes. Practically? I reach for Tylenol when I have a headache! A chronic, painful condition? That's going to be hard... But maybe PD4 gives us a goal?

The manner of our death seems to be one of those things not under our control:

Quote

Letter to Menoikeus, DL, X: 127: Remember that what will be is not completely within our control nor completely outside our control, so that we will not completely expect it to happen nor be completely disappointed if it does not happen.

That being said, we can exercise which may lead to a longer life. We can eat properly and drink alcohol moderately who may lead to a longer life. But there are no guarantees. However, if we live wisely, justly, and nobly, we will at least have a better chance of living a longer healthy life before we die.

Quote from Godfrey

As far as thinking about death goes, to me that would only apply to thinking about a good death... I can't imagine finding pleasure in visualizing being eaten by a tiger.

Ah, but even that death should be mitigated by the knowledge that pain is either chronic and endurable or short and fatal... At least theoretically according to PD4

Quote from Cassius

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you probably mean "if we can find pleasure even in THINKING ABOUT death....."??

That was how I interpreted Godfrey 's post.

For me, "death is nothing to us," means there really is no "state of being dead" - we longer exist and therefore "we" can't be said to exist in a certain "state." We can certainly be "dying" but we can't really be said to "be dead." After we die, we can't be said "to be" anything. We have ceased to exist.

Here's my *very* literal translation of section 126 of the Letter to Menoikeus that seems to talk about what you're proposing:

Then the wise one neither begs/craves for living nor fears not living; Neither to set oneself against living, nor to think/suppose/imagine that it is evil to not live. Just as, on the one hand, the most food is not chosen but that which brings the greatest pleasure; as well as, on the other hand, not the longest time but that in which one enjoys the fruits of that which brings the greatest pleasure. Then, the one who exhorts (on the one hand) for the one who is young to live nobly, and, on the other hand, the one who is old to come to an end (die) nobly is a good-hearted simpleton not only because life is to be welcomed, but also because the practice of living well/nobly/beautifully (καλώς) and (the practice of) dying well/nobly/beautifully (καλώς) are the same. And also far worse (is) the one who says, on the one hand, it is good/kalōn (καλός) not to be born, or "failing this, to pass through the gates of Hades as soon as possible."

(Last part is a quote from Theognis. See the full poem in his Wikipedia article.)