Posts by Don

That's an even better point, Joshua Thanks for that post!

Quote from Joshua

The use of the word "idol" in 46 should not be construed to carry its religious connotations. Epicurus uses the Greek word εἴδωλον, eidolon, which is the root of the English word but means:

Noun Edit

εἴδωλον • (eídōlon) n (genitive εἰδώλου); second declension

1. phantom, ghost

2. shape, figure, image

3. image of the mind: idea, fancy

4. representation, statue, idol

We appear to be dealing with some combination of definitions 2 and 3.

Display More

Agreed, but I do find it interesting to remember that the literal definition of the (English) word "idol" is a "representation" of a god and stems directly from ειδολών.

idol | Etymology, origin and meaning of idol by etymonline

IDOL Meaning: "image of a deity as an object of (pagan) worship," from Old French idole "idol, graven image, pagan… See definitions of idol.

www.etymonline.com

Quote from Joshua

The use of the word "idol" in 46 should not be construed to carry its religious connotations. Epicurus uses the Greek word εἴδωλον, eidolon, which is the root of the English word but means:

Noun Edit

εἴδωλον • (eídōlon) n (genitive εἰδώλου); second declension

1. phantom, ghost

2. shape, figure, image

3. image of the mind: idea, fancy

4. representation, statue, idol

We appear to be dealing with some combination of definitions 2 and 3.

Display More

Agreed, but I do find it interesting to remember that the literal definition of the (English) word "idol" is a "representation" of a god and stems directly from ειδολών.

idol | Etymology, origin and meaning of idol by etymonline

IDOL Meaning: "image of a deity as an object of (pagan) worship," from Old French idole "idol, graven image, pagan… See definitions of idol.

www.etymonline.com

The Sweet Spot: The Pleasures of Suffering and the Search for Meaning

University of Toronto psychologist Paul Bloom shares 5 key insights from his new book, The Sweet Spot: The Pleasures of Suffering and the Search for Meaning

nextbigideaclub.com

That's one problem I have with the new book by Paul Bloom. He seems (I've not read the book but heard him on several podcasts talking about it) to see some problem in taking pleasure in things, even things that may have been difficult to achieve. His stress on "meaning vs pleasure" seems specious to me:

Quote from Paul Bloom

Now, one alternative to pleasure is meaning. This drive for meaning is every bit as important as the drive to have a good time, to enjoy ourselves, to be happy.

But from my perspective, that "meaning" he stresses gives one pleasure, so we're right back to an Epicurean square one. It's the hedonist = "a string of drinking parties and festivals" straw-man fallacy that is not what Epicurus advocated.

FYI Did not realize the word came from a comic strip:

Caspar Milquetoast - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Also the discussion of "down" comes up in [60]:

[60] "Further, we must not assert `up' or `down' of that which is unlimited, as if there were a zenith or nadir.92 As to the space overhead, however, if it be possible to draw93 a line to infinity from the point where we stand, we know that never will this space --or, for that matter, the space below the supposed standpoint if produced to infinity--appear to us to be at the same time `up' and `down' with reference to the same point ; for this is inconceivable. Hence it is possible to assume one direction of motion, which we conceive as extending upwards ad infinitum, and another downwards, even if it should happen ten thousand times that what moves from us to the spaces above our heads reaches the feet of those above us, or that which moves downwards from us the heads of those below us. None the less is it true that the whole of the motion in the respective cases is conceived as extending in opposite directions ad infinitum.

[61] "When they are travelling through the void and meet with no resistance, the atoms must move with equal speed. Neither will heavy atoms travel more quickly than small and light ones, so long as nothing meets them, nor will small atoms travel more quickly than large ones, provided they always find a passage suitable to their size, and provided also that they meet with no obstruction. Nor will their upward or their lateral motion, which is due to collisions, nor again their downward motion, due to weight, affect their velocity. As long as either motion obtains, it must continue, quick as the speed of thought, provided there is no obstruction, whether due to external collision or to the atoms' own weight counteracting the force of the blow.

FYI when you're agonizing over boundless vs infinite vs incomprehensible number in "verse" 42/43 seems kind of moot in that the word used in Greek that appears to be used in all places in the text is ἄπειρος "boundless," literally from ἀ- (a-, “not”) +‎ πεῖραρ (peîrar), πέρας (péras, “end, limit”) :

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἄπειρος

The "not comprehensible" is simply οὐχ ἄπειροι "not apeiroi"

Quote from Don

so philosophy is useless if it does not remove suffering from the soul.

, οὕτως οὐδὲ φιλοσοφίας, εἰ μὴ τὸ τῆς ψυχῆς ἐκβάλλει πάθος.

btw ἐκβάλλει is not merely "remove." It connotes cast away, hurl away, or throw from. "Remove" strikes me as a little milquetoast.

A philosopher's words are empty if they do not heal the suffering of mankind. For just as medicine is useless if it does not remove sickness from the body, so philosophy is useless if it does not remove suffering from the soul. κενὸς ἐκείνου φιλοσόφου λόγος, ὑφʼ οὗ μηδὲν πάθος ἀνθρώπου θεραπεύεται· ὥσπερ γὰρ ἰατρικῆς οὐδὲν ὄφελος μὴ τὰς νόσους τῶν σωμάτων ἐκβαλλούσης, οὕτως οὐδὲ φιλοσοφίας, εἰ μὴ τὸ τῆς ψυχῆς ἐκβάλλει πάθος.

I really want to write a book (in my spare time ) entitled:

Pleasure is not a Four-Letter Word

The Garden Path to Well-Being

and lure people in under the guise of a "self-help" book but - surprise! - it's really an introduction to Epicurus's philosophy.

Ask and ye shall receive...

French: plaisir "pleasure"

Etymology

From Middle French plaisir, from Old French plaisir, from Latin placēre, present active infinitive of placeō. Compare Occitan plaser (“pleasure”), Catalan plaer (“pleasure”), Italian piacere (“pleasure”), Spanish placer (“pleasure”), Portuguese prazer (“pleasure”), Romanian plăcere (“pleasure”).

PLAISIR : Définition de PLAISIR

French:

Look up "enjoy" in Wiktionary and get:

French: (with a noun) profiter de, jouir de, (with a verb) apprécier, prendre plaisir (fr) "take pleasure"

Jouir.

Etymology

From Middle French jouir, jouïr, iouyr, from Old French joïr, from Vulgar Latin *gaudīre (*gaudiō), from Latin gaudēre, present active infinitive of gaudeō. Doublet of gaudir, which was a borrowing.

Doesn't Lucretius use gadeamus somewhere?

I'm personally getting tired of this parsing by English pontificators and writers and cultural "intellectuals" in dancing around "pleasure" as if it's a four-letter word. Enjoyment, happiness, etc = pleasure = voluptas = ηδονή

Thanks for taking one for the team, Cassius .

Dr. Voula Tsouna's The Ethics of Philodemus includes a look at anger.

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Don

Did I hear my name?

Just about every episode!

See, but this way, I get to swoop in at the end without the need to say, "That's a good question!" and get recorded looking up definitions and citations. Consider me your on-call librarian.

Quote from Pacatus

* Don, I seem to recall that aletheia (?) in Greek meant that which was unconcealed/unhidden -- or revealed?

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἀληθ-ής

Also from Wiktionary:

Etymology

In form it would be from ἀ- (a-, “un-”) + *ληθής, from λῆθος (lêthos, “*concealment, forgetfulness”) +‎ -ής (-ḗs), thus "unconcealed", "unforgotten".

Ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *leh₂- (“to be concealed”) (whence λήθω (lḗthō), λανθάνω (lanthánō) and more)

Adjective

ᾰ̓ληθής • m or f (neuter ᾰ̓ληθές); third declension

(of things) true, real, genuine

(of people) truthful, honest

385 BCE – 380 BCE, Plato, Symposium 217e:

οἶνος […] ἦν ἀληθής

oînos […] ên alēthḗs

Wine is truthful. (in vino veritas)

Lucretius and the Epicurean View That "All Perceptions are True" (forthcoming, but still a DRAFT version)

The well-known and controversial thesis that «all perceptions are true» is endorsed by all Epicureans. At least three general interpretations of it have been…

www.academia.edu

PS: So, the etymology is something like "not concealed" or "not forgetful" but etymology doesn't always equal definition 1:1. As LSJ says for αληθής: "unconcealed, so true, real, opp. false" So, the opposite of αληθής is "false" ψευδής not "hidden."

Trivia: The River of Forgetfulness in the Underworld is named Λήθη Lethe.

"of bodies some are composite, others the elements of which these composite bodies are made."

σωμάτων τὰ μέν ἐστι συγκρίσεις, τὰ δ᾽ ἐξ ὧν αἱ συγκρίσεις πεποίηνται:

συγκρίσεις

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, σύγκρι^σις

πεποίηνται

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ποιέω

"It is upon sensation that reason must rely when it attempts to infer the unknown from the known." (End of verse 39)

καθ᾽ ἣν ἀναγκαῖον τὸ ἄδηλον τῷ λογισμῷ τεκμαίρεσθαι:

τῷ λογισμῷ (Dative case) = through logismōi

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, λογ-ισμός

τὸ ἄδηλον = "the unseen; what is not evident to the senses"

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἄδηλ-ος

τεκμαίρεσθαι = "to judge by signs and tokens"

It does not appear that the phrase "the unknown from the known" is actually in the Greek. The only word is τὸ ἄδηλον "the unseen" so the actual paraphrase would be something like "it is necessary to judge the unseen through reasoning" while also calling back to the previous phrase that talks about the senses.

Did I hear my name?

The Greek for the section you discussed around 8:11 is:

τὸ πᾶν ἐστι σώματα καὶ κενόν: σώματα μὲν γὰρ ὡς ἔστιν, αὐτὴ ἡ αἴσθησις ἐπὶ πάντων μαρτυρεῖ.

The "bodies" are σώματα (sōmata). So...

"the whole of being (τὸ πᾶν) consists of bodies and space (our old friend κενόν (kenon)):. For the existence of bodies is everywhere attested by sense itself."

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, σῶμα

"generally, a body, i.e. any corporeal substance"

Quote from SimonC

In Lucian's "A True Story" there is a description of a battle with troops coming from various stars as well as the sun and moon. So it was possible for Lucian at least to think of stars as habitable places and not just "holes in a sphere".

(The list of troops from the sun and moon also implies that they are large, and not the size of a basketball)

All good points! Thanks!

I'd be curious to look at the vocabulary Lucian uses in the Greek for any clues.

Quote from Cassius

Would it be correct to say that the implication of a "world" is that it constitutes certain areas out of the totality of things (the universe)

I would say "yes" with the continued caveat that "world" does not equal "planet" in the modern sense. "World" seems to consistently translate κόσμος (kosmos) "world system" which sets it apart from - or makes it a subset of - το παν "the all."

I'm not sure if the significance you're ascribing to "revolving" or where that comes from.