Posts by Don

Quote from Joshua

I am doggedly pursuing a poem that I remember from college but cannot find

Can I be any help?

A brief caveat: I'd be cautious about using the word "science" to describe what was going on in ancient Greece and Rome. Science as a discipline is akin - but not necessarily identical - to the "natural philosophy" practiced by the ancient Greeks. Foundations were being laid, observations were being made, and the material world was beginning to be understood. However, we have to be careful of projecting a modern understanding of the word "science" et al. onto the ancient mindset.

Quote from Don

I'm already writing a rebuttal in my head. Here are the opening lines

Meh. Life's to short to write a rebuttal to every mediocre, ill-conceived article. The opening lines are all I'm willing to put in... That and my continuing voluminous word count on this forum

Quote from Kalosyni

I think his negative opening comment on Epicurus was because he might think that the fear of death will help motivate someone to enjoy the present moment.

I could see that, and maybe even appreciate it, if the prose wasn't so hamfisted. There might be a good article in there somewhere. I get the impression he's working under a deadline and thought "Live in the moment. Yeah, everybody loves that. I'll write a few hundred words with that."

One of my biggest annoyances with this article is that he completely misses Epicurus's intent. People live their lives fearing death and the afterlife and completely miss living their lives. We shouldn't worry about that but instead pay attention to what's happening now. "Living in the moment" is often construed to mean blocking out all else. People who really -really!- live in the present moment are miserable! The only people that only live in the present are those rare individuals who cannot form long-term memories and each moment is a new experience. They keep logs of their experiences in a diary, their only link to the past. I realize this isn't what is usually "meant" by "live in the present" but it comes off like that.

In its wider contextual meaning, "living in the moment" is exactly what Epicurus encouraged. Listen to your body. Pay attention to your feelings of pleasure and pain. Make choices and rejections now to live your fullest, most pleasurable live because this is all you have. Make plans and write wills, but don't always expect them to come to fruition or to be followed. But be prudent. You can't rely on chance or the gods.

That is a good quote, and even sounds a little Epicurean.

This article just strikes me as lazy writing. I'm already writing a rebuttal in my head. Here are the opening lines:

Arguably the most useless phrase ever uttered by pop spirituality is that we should "live in the moment." Devoid of context or further instruction, "live in the moment" is an easy throwaway line, an otherwise vacuous trope to make one sound deep without actually having to do any work in providing real, substantive, helpful advice for living.

Epicurus, on the other hand, said, "A philosopher's words are empty if they do not heal the suffering of mankind."

In your own time: how to live for today the philosophical way

What’s gone is gone, but don’t waste time worrying about that. Or on what comes next. The ideal way to age is to be in the moment

www.theguardian.com

"Arguably the most useless observation ever made by an ancient Greek philosopher – putting aside, for now, Pythagoras’s theory that fava beans contained the souls of the dead – was Epicurus’s argument that we shouldn’t fear death, because we won’t be around when it happens."

Thoughts on this article?

Mine? First blush: Surprising number of words and still mostly content-free. This is what passes for "insightful prose"??

In Greek, the word occurs in On Nature, Book 14, column 16 :

column 26

P.Herc. 1148 fr. 5

Engraved 1804-1864 by Salvatore Ventrella

ἀπορίαν̣ σ̣υνε[χῶς οὐκ ἂν]

προφέροι, κ̣α[ὶ παρασκευά-]

ζοι κούφισιν ὁ [λόγος ἡμῶν],

ὡς ἔοικε̣[ν] ἀνθρ[ώποις ̣ ̣ ̣]

5θηι [ ̣ ̣]ατα οὐκ ἂ̣[ν παρασκευ-]

άζο̣[ι ̣]ε̣ιδ[ ̣] δ̣ὴ̣ [⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]

[ ̣ ̣] ε[ ̣]φο[ ̣]εσ̣[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]

[ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣]τη̣[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]

[ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣τ]αρ̣αχ[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]

10[ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣]ρας δ[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]

[ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣]ε[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἀπορία

IV. in Dialectic, question for discussion, difficulty, puzzle

Not related to aponia.

Aporia is related to a "not" + poros "means of passing a river, ford, ferry"

beasain Welcome aboard, and thank you very much for the introduction to yourself and how you arrived here!

Kalosyni , in another thread in the Gallery, made the important point that it depends very much on the individual UU congregation and pastor as to whether they would be open to exploring Epicureanism within their organization. Fully agree! My intent for bringing them up was that they were the only organization that came to mind that would seem to be receptive - if the interest is in exploring the "spiritual" aspects (for lack of a better term than "piety") of Epicurus's philosophy if we don't want to start from scratch.

I would be very curious if anyone else has had any experience with Unitarian Universalist congregations and Epicureanism. I haven't personally, just using those links as background.

I must say I kind of liked the "Epicurean liturgy" they link to in the first site.

Quote from Root304

Anyway, maybe I'll drop in tomorrow.

If you do, keep us posted on your experience. I for one am curious. I've seen some mention of UUs having Epicurean dinners for philosophical conversation and eating. Ex.

A second "Epicurean Gathering" and a little bit of it's history

Update 26 June 2014. Please click on this link to go to a page where you will find the most recent revision of the Epicurean Liturgy and a...

andrewjbrown.blogspot.com

The Swerve: How the World Became Modern | Unitarian Universalist Church of Canton

Epicurus Archives - Cambridge Unitarian Church

A Non-Prophet Organisation

www.cambridgeunitarian.org

@Root304 , if you're interested in exploring "spiritual" outlets for your kids: Do you have any Unitarian Universalist churches in your area. We attended one when our daughter was young. My only misgiving(?) was that they were almost too welcoming. Anything goes. That was during my Buddhist period, too. So, they'd be more than open to an Epicurean. But it gave structure for our daughter and she had fun.

Quote from Root304

forgive me for always mentioning that I am thinking about my kids in every post.

Nothing to forgive there

Quote from Cassius

the well-known "Captain Kirk" alternative of changing the rules of the game rather than giving in to defeat without every last possible exertion.

Ah, the Kobayashi Maru...

Kobayashi Maru - Wikipedia

Quote from Cassius

Also to the tiger example, and Epicurean might say: "What the heck are you doing hanging out around cliffs where tigers are everywhere?

Well, if you live somewhere where tigers are an actual not uncommon danger (which is I believe the origin of this story), you don't really get a choice of hanging around where tigers are a danger. You're already there.

(I realize your comment was mostly tongue in cheek, but just saying.)

Quote from Cassius

But in most cases, even if you were actually on the Titanic, I think it would make the most sense to use every second...

In these contexts, I harken back to a Tibetan Buddhist saying:

Quote

If you were to fall to your death from a very great height it would be a shame not to enjoy the view as you fell, or to appreciate the wind in your hair or warmth of the sun on your face.

So, yes, if there's a chance of survival, work on surviving. If you fall out of an airplane, squeeze the last iota of pleasure from your life.

Welcome aboard, DavidN !

I wanted to note - even though we all know it, it bears repeating - that Epicurueanism was over well over 300 years old when Christianity was just beginning to be established:

In around 311 BC, Epicurus, when he was around thirty years old, began teaching in Mytilene. (Wikipedia)

Jesus' ministry ended around 30 CE. Paul's conversion is around the same time. Epicurus started teaching around 311 BCE... Over 340 prior to the beginnings of Christianity.

In light of that, I just want to say that - for me - it's only makes sense if the flow of similarities flows from Epicurueanism to Christianity. Just like Christmas, Easter, building churches on ground holy to existing faiths. Just like one theory of mine that the church of St George in the Kerameikos district in Athens is built on top of the Garden. That's just a theory of mine, not currently backed up by anything other than a hunch. If there are similarities, it's because the Garden was seen as a threat, and the followers of Christ stole from it to make their religion more popular. Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum.

Quote from Kalosyni

The current understanding of the word "saviour" comes to us by the Christian faith in Jesus being eternal/immortal and all powerful. I would doubt Epicureans felt that way about Epicurus.

I would agree that the Epicurueans didn't see Epicurus as *that* kind of savior, but I have no problem thinking they saw him as a savior figure. He literally saved humanity from ignorance and fear. One doesn't have to be immortal or omnipotent to be a saviour. It was also a popular epithet for gods and heroes:

Soter - Wikipedia

PS:

Early AD 121 – Plotina writes to Hadrian on behalf of the Epicurean school in Athens (#Hadrian1900) FOLLOWING HADRIAN

In the early year of AD 121, Pompeia Plotina, the greatly respected widow of the emperor Trajan, sent Hadrian a letter asking him to help the Epicurean school…

followinghadrian.com

both the preservation of the dignity of that place which contains the (…) will be firmly secures and equally the opinion concerning the successor of our saviour, which… when… became master of the school, since Epicurus…

Saviour in her letter is ΣΩΤΗΡ:

Fourth line from the bottom on the right.

PS: That word is in the phrase ΚΑΘΗΓΕΜΟΝΙΑΣ ΤΟΥ ΣΩΤΗΡ which is kathēgemonias which I'm assuming the translator gives as "successor" but it is similar (identical?) to the terms used in DeWitt and elsewhere to refer to the teachers of the Garden.

Thanks for these references, Eikadistes .

For anyone who's interested...

52. Friendship dances around the world, announcing to each of us that we must awaken to happiness.

ἡ φιλία περιχορεύει τὴν οἰκουμένην κηρύττουσα δὴ πᾶσιν ἡμῖν ἐγείρεσθαι ἐπὶ τὸν μακαρισμόν.

κηρύττω Attic form of κηρῠ́σσω

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, κηρύσσω

G2784 - kēryssō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G2784 - κηρύσσω kērýssō, kay-roos'-so; of uncertain affinity; to herald (as a public crier), especially divine truth (the gospel):—preacher(-er), proclaim,…

www.blueletterbible.org

Also note:

ἐγείρεσθαι (middle/passive infinitive) "to wake, keep watch; to rouse oneself, be excited"

μακαρισμόν. Note that those is the exact word used to describe the gods. "Happiness" is a little underwhelming here. In fact, friendship dances round the known world (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…try=oi)koume/nh) heralding to each and every one of us to awaken to the blessed life of the gods.