Posts by Don

Quote from Cassius

Question:

"Do you know of any material on how Epicurus viewed differences from the start of life that are out of our control? For example, a baby being born into a rich family vs. a poor family and having more opportunities, or being born in adverse racial or ethnic or religious or other circumstances? Are these initial differences determined by Nature? I think not because that would imply some divine intervention?"

Fascinating question. I would reference VS09. From my perspective, this Vatican Saying addresses "differences from the start of life that are out of our control." It's also a clever bit of writing from Epicurus. The original Greek reads "κακὸν ἀνάγκη, ἀλλʼ οὐδεμία ἀνάγκη ζῆν μετὰ ἀνάγκης." Note those three occurrences of ἀνάγκη/ἀνάγκης. The word itself means force, constraint, or necessity; so a literal translation would be something like "An evil, necessity (is); but (there is) no necessity to live in the midst of necessity." This retains the clever wordplay but is honestly a little clunky in English. To get the import of the statement, a paraphrase is better. Consider what he is saying. Being constrained - or perceiving or assuming that you are constrained - in your choices is an evil. If you have only one choice - or feel you only have one choice - that is an evil and thus painful. However, we have free will, so we are not required to live having our choices curtailed and constrained. Even if we make choices we don't want to make, we are exercising our free will. "I don't want to go to work today, but I have to." No, you don't. You could quit. But are you ready to face the consequences of quitting your job? You can consciously decide today is not the day I quit. I make the decision to get up and do the work. Likewise, maybe getting a new job is the right decision. Weigh your options. Exercise your faculty of choice and rejection. You are not forced to be forced to do something.

In the current discussion, this implies that one is not ultimately constrained by their birth situation - albeit with important caveats.

Epicurus encourages us to make prudent choices and rejections and to practice well.

Okay, here is the 11-page DRAFT version of Epicurus’s Birthday: The 7th, 10th, or 20th of Gamelion? A Mystery Solved

Epicurus’s Birthday_ The 7th, 10th, or 20th of Gamelion.pdf

Ready for initial review and comment.

This will be revised into a final version and eventually posted to the Filebase/Library here at the forum. I'm also planning on uploading it to Internet Archive like I did with the Letter to Menoikeus. Maybe Academica.edu since I've seen Hiram post some of his articles there. Why not!

I realize this is a lot of material and ended up more as a collection of notes instead of a linear narrative, but, take a look, let me know what you think and where improvements can be made, what material can be added or subtracted or modified

Hope you enjoy!

PS: One correction done already: Any mention in the PDF of the "first tenth" has been changed to the "earlier tenth."

btw, definitely knocking down the "7th day of the month of Gamelion" is taking longer to pull together all the references, images, etc. than I expected. I think it is a strong case (especially with Alpers and other scholars weighing in since the 1960s) but I want to be sure to cover all the bases. Basically, so that if someone wants to argue, they aren't arguing with just little old me but with several decades of established scholarship!

Knocking down Gamelion 10 and supporting Gamelion 20 are going to go much faster!

Just a status report on that mythical paper I've claimed to be writing (all physical evidence to the contrary)

Quote from Cassius

an indepth article well linked and very findable to short-circuit the question next time it is asked

LOL! Be careful what you ask for! I'm in the process of working on a semi-formal paper consolidating all this information about the controversy among Gamelion 7, 10, and 20 with links in the PDF plus image snippets from the manuscripts and a bibliography of sources. Hopefully it'll be complete in the next day or so to get some feedback and then polish.

Quote from Pacatus

What I really appreciate is that – even with the sincere investigation and really trying to come up with a meaningful date – it is all more in the nature of fun, rather than fundamentalism.

Thanks! That was certainly the spirit.

Quote from Pacatus

I do have a prophecy, however. This will not be the last year of discussion on the matter – whatever date you hit upon: you all would just miss the sheer pleasure of it too much!

I hear you, but, honestly, I'm getting pretty confident and satisfied with what we've come up with on this thread. Besides there are *plenty* of other obscure details that I want to sink my research teeth into including pinpointing the location of the Garden. Currently, I'm eyeing the site of the Church of the Holy Trinity in Athens:

Church of the Holy Trinity at Kerameikos · Pireos, Athina 105 53, Greece

★★★★★ · Greek Orthodox church

goo.gl

for various reasons... but that all will be for another thread!

There's also the on-going look at Aristotle's Nichomachean Ethics... and I'm also curious to go through the texts to pick out specific foods mentioned in reference to the Epicureans. It goes beyond "bread and water" and cheese.

As for me and Epicurus's Birthday, put me down as a firm "Twentyer" or, in Ancient Greek, ΕΙΚΑΔΙΣΤΗΣ (Eikadistes).

Kalosyni and Joshua inspired me to poke around, too. Found this one:

Kepos: Garden Spaces in Ancient Greece: Imagination and Reality

A number of images have been removed from the electronic copy of this thesis for copyright reasons. A list of the removed images is available below.

www.academia.edu

Note: Only 1 mention of "Epicurean" but remember that The Garden was just outside the Dipylon Gate in the Kerameikos district... And lots on that!

I had commented on this very topic quite some time ago when I was sharing my thoughts on DeWitt's book. Here's the pertinent excerpt from that earlier post:

p.101 of Epicurus and his Philosophy has:

Quote

There is, however, still something to be added. During the first three centuries of Christianity the representations of Christ exhibit a youthful and beardless face, not unlike that of Apollo. The bearded portraits began to appear at a later date and simultaneously with the absorption of the Epicurean sect into the Christian environment. These new pictures of Christ exhibit a similarity to those of Epicurus, then growing obsolete. This similarity is such as to be manifest to the most disinterested observer.

No, I don't buy this, and it's not "manifest to the most disinterested observer." For one glaring difference, the earliest "portraits" of a bearded Jesus have very long hair. The Wikipedia article on the depiction of Jesus shows one of the earliest bearded images from the late 4th century. The long flowing locks are quite visible. That's not Epicurus. The article does a fairly good job of outlining the various theories of where this bearded depiction comes from, and it's not copies of Epicurus. The references in that article, too, also point to numerous options for where the bearded depiction comes from.

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Don

monthly assembly of his school on the 20th was established.

From our point of view, what about Jan 20 vs Feb 20?

Edited the summary above.

For sources and further explanation, feel free to read through this thread. To summarize the current understanding:

- The are good reasons to believe that the reference to Apollodorus' Chronicle in Diogenes Laertius, Book 10.14 should be translated "he was born in the seventh month of Gamelion" and NOT "the seventh day of Gamelion."

- It is confirmed that the reference to the "earlier tenth of Gamelion" in Epicurus's Will refers to the 20th day of the lunar cycle in the ancient Athenian calendar.

- For this reason, there is his reason to accept that Epicurus's Birthday was actually Gamelion 20, that it was the usual practice to celebrate it on that day, and that is why the monthly assembly of his school on the 20th was established.

- Since the month of Gamelion most closely matches January in the current calendar (give or take a couple weeks), the best way in modern times to keep to the spirit of Epicurus's Will is to celebrate his Birthday on January 20 every year. (It is to this "Annual 20th" that Philodemus was inviting Piso.)

- We can also create a "movable feast day" using a reconstructed Ancient Athenian calendar but we should use Gamelion 20 as the day.

I noticed this thread has gotten 1.2K views in a little over a week. Hopefully, we'll make some people take a second look at what's considered "common knowledge" on the issue of Epicurus's Birthday.

Quote from Kalosyni

Okay, so even though everyone has the Wikipedia calculations (and I must be clearly wrong) -- I made a graphic to explain (the colored text is only to make it more readable).

What I am saying is that you only count the increase or the decrease of the shape of the moon.

OH! I see what your referring to. Thanks for graphic.

From my understanding, the moon is always either waxing, full, waning or new.

If I read the Wikipedia table right, There are only 30 days in the cycle from one new moon to the next, so they're counting every day between new and new.

Let me see if I can convey what I'm thinking using this table and the moon chart

YAY! I took the "early sunset" color!

PS: Changed my mind! I'm taking the blue sky moon!

Quote from Cassius

I was thinking you were asking for maybe some "pale" variations that sort of match the sky?

That was what was in my mind too

Quote from Cassius

Hows that for a series of "natural" colors -- especially the fluorescent purple!

L L! Enthusiasm got the best of me

Quote from Cassius

Should lend itself to color variations if the similarity gets too confusing! I probably won't switch but I do like it too!

That's a good idea. At least natural colors like hues of red, yellow, blue, etc.

What do you think, Eikadistes ?

Eikadistes : I hope you don't mind but I'm trying out your 20er avatar, too. Let me know y'all if that's too confusing and I'll go back to my tetradrachm

Quote from Kalosyni

"when the first sliver of moon was visible" -- by my method that would 1st day waxing

Right. Using the Nov/Dec calendars above, to my understanding:

The noumenia or the first sliver of waxing would be Nov. 24 or 25.

The 10th would be Dec. 3

The 20th or "earlier 10th" would be Dec. 13 or 14.

Then the final 10 waning days count down toward the next noumenia.

So the 20th day of the lunar month would always look the same.

Quote from Kalosyni

By my counting then, the 20th (which would be the 2nd 10th) would fall on the last day of a visible waning crescent.

Wouldn't the "earlier tenth" (20th) look like the moon on the above charts on Dec. 13 or 14th? The Noumenia seems to have started when the "first sliver" of the new moon was visible.

Noumenia - Wikipedia

btw, I really like this line of thinking of Kalosyni and the graphics that Eikadistes has been working up!!

Thanks for that reminder, Joshua ! You're absolutely right. The fact that we can even have this discussion about *conflicting* ideas from a day 2,400 years ago is amazing!

Let's pare that pertinent sentence down to its bare bones:

Ἐγεννήθη δέ, φησὶν Ἀπολλόδωρος ἐν Χρονικοῖς, κατὰ τὸ τρίτον ἔτος τῆς ἐνάτης καὶ ἑκατοστῆς Ὀλυμπιάδος ἐπὶ Σωσιγένους ἄρχοντος μηνὸς γαμηλιῶνος ἑβδόμῃ,

Ἐγεννήθη "he was born"

φησὶν Ἀπολλόδωρος ἐν Χρονικοῖς

Apollodorus says in (his) Chronicle

δέ is just the conjunction "and, so, etc."

κατὰ τὸ τρίτον ἔτος τῆς ἐνάτης καὶ ἑκατοστῆς Ὀλυμπιάδος

during the 3rd year (τὸ τρίτον ἔτος) of the 109th Olympiad

ἐπὶ Σωσιγένους ἄρχοντος

in the archonship of Sosigenēs

μηνὸς γαμηλιῶνος ἑβδόμῃ,

μηνὸς "month" noun singular masculine genitive of μήν

γαμηλιῶνος "Gamelion" noun singular masculine genitive

ἑβδόμῃ "seventh" adjective singular *feminine* dative

ἑβδόμης adjective singular *feminine* genitive

ἑβδόμη adjective singular *feminine* nominative

Words in ancient Greek have to agree with each other in number, case, and gender. Every permutation I've seen of "seventh" is *feminine*. There's no word in that sentence that seems to fit with being modified by a feminine adjective. There has to be a seventh something. However, used by itself it can mean "the seventh one" as in

ἡ ἑβδόμη "the seventh day". So, my theory continues to be "of (the) month of Gamelion, (the) seventh one (i.e., seventh month).