Posts by Don

It's been around for awhile, but it keeps falling off my radar.

https://www.amazon.com/Epicureanism-Very-Short-Introduction-Introductions/dp/019968832X

Has anyone read Catherine Wilson's other book? I'll admit I have not. Any reviews welcomed.

Quote

Product Description

Epicureanism is commonly associated with a carefree view of life and the pursuit of pleasures, particularly the pleasures of the table. However it was a complex and distinctive system of philosophy that emphasized simplicity and moderation, and considered nature to consist of atoms and the void. Epicureanism is a school of thought whose legacy continues to reverberate today.

In this Very Short Introduction, Catherine Wilson explains the key ideas of the School, comparing them with those of the rival Stoics and with Kantian ethics, and tracing their influence on the development of scientific and political thought from Locke, Newton, and Galileo to Rousseau, Marx, Bentham, and Mill. She discusses the adoption and adaptation of Epicurean motifs in science, morality, and politics from the 17th Century onwards and contextualises the significance of Epicureanism in modern life.

ABOUT THE SERIES: The Very Short Introductions series from Oxford University Press contains hundreds of titles in almost every subject area. These pocket-sized books are the perfect way to get ahead in a new subject quickly. Our expert authors combine facts, analysis, perspective, new ideas, and enthusiasm to make interesting and challenging topics highly readable.

The Pocket Epicurean

The Pocket Epicurean

www.amazon.com

Quote

Product Description

A short, smart guide to living the good life through the teachings of Epicurus.

As long as there has been human life, we’ve searched for what it means to be happy. More than two thousand years ago, the Greek philosopher Epicurus came to his own conclusion: all we really want in life is pleasure. Though today we tend to associate the word “Epicurean” with indulgence in the form of food and wine, the philosophy of Epicurus was about a life well lived even in the hardest of times. As John Sellars shows in this concise, approachable guide, the ideal life envisioned by Epicurus and his followers was a life much more concerned with mental pleasures and the avoidance of pain. Their goal, in short, was a life of tranquility or contentment.

In The Pocket Epicurean Sellars walks us through the history of Epicureanism, starting with the private garden on the edge of ancient Athens where Epicurus and his students lived in the fourth century BC, and where women were as welcome as men. Sellars then moves on to ancient Rome, where Epicurean influence flourished thanks to the poet Lucretius and his cohort. Throughout the book, Sellars draws on the ideas of Epicurus to offer a constructive way of thinking about the pleasures of friendship and our place in the world.

Review

"I recommend Sellars’s book to anyone who wants a short, plainly stated introduction to Epicurus’s primarily ethical thought. . . . For someone with this desire, I know of no book more suitable than Sellars’s The Pocket Epicurean." ― Metascience

“Lucid and scholarly.” ― Independent, on the UK Edition

“Sellars expertly expounds Epicurean ideas. . . . and he knows the Greek and Latin Epicurean texts thoroughly.” ― Guardian, on the UK Edition

“Not only an excellent introduction to the history of Epicurean philosophy, but also a helpful guide to facing the manifold anxieties of modern life.”

― The Idler, on the UK edition

“In this brief and eloquent book, Sellars takes us through the basic arguments of Epicureanism with wonderful clarity, distilling the essence of an ancient philosophy that speaks with increasing urgency to our troubled times. It is an exemplary guide, and I recommend it enthusiastically to readers of all ages and all walks of life.” -- David Konstan, New York University

"By the end of the volume, one has a good sense both of the importance of Epicureanism in the Hellenistic and Roman eras, its primary goals, and the ways in which one could still effectively apply Epicurean ideas to one’s own modus vivendi."

― Bryn Mawr Classical Review

Display More

Agreed that Dr. Austin's book is the best starting place currently. If you don't want to make people buy her book, my suggestion would be to start with the several podcasts she's done both here and on other shows. If you need links, I think we've added them to the podcasts/modern books section but I can try to consolidate of that would be helpful.

If you're looking for free resources, DeWitt is available on Internet Archive:

Epicurus And His Philosophy : Epicurus : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Epicurus And His Philosophy

archive.org

But, honestly, I'm not as big a fan of his than some on this forum. I think his content is fine, his scholarship is first rate, but his style and vocabulary (and other details) can be a bit off-putting for me. He's not always an easy read. For me **personally** : on his organization and general direction. on writing style, expanding references beyond what they say, and Christianity around every corner. That said, he's what we have (or had, until Emily's book).

As an aside: I've recently become interested in Dr. Michael Rucker and his work on including more "fun" in our lives. I've listened to the audiobook of his "The Fun Habit" and even bought the print book and am slowly going though it. I hope to make a (positive) Epicurean response to it some day. He also has a website:

A counterintuitive method to ensure 2023 is your most fun year ever.

michaelrucker.com

with a lot of resources.

*I* think it is an eminently Epicurean book albeit without mention of Epicurus. It could easily have been called The Pleasure Habit, because I think both pleasure and fun have been maligned in our culture, at least in North America.

I also want to re-read Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry since Dr. Austin brought up the Epicurean example of Augustus "Gus" McCray in that book, set against his friend Woodrow Call, the Stoic.

Early morning thought. Good luck on your project!!!

Quote from Cassius

we are born with some faculty within us that makes us better at this, and carry it further, than dogs and cats and the like

But remember, some animals are born with more ability for pattern "appreciation" than us in some senses, like dogs and the patterns in smells, for example. Read An Immense World: How Animal Senses Reveal the Hidden Realms Around Us by Ed Yong.

I would characterize the "answers" that ChatGPT gives as glorified versions of the Magic 8 Ball with simply a larger repertoire of available responses.

For those younger readers:

Magic 8 Ball - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

At least the haruspex was relying on their own experience and interpretive "skills" when looking for "signs" in sacrificial entrails. (Not an endorsement of haruspicy btw).

Quote from Kalosyni

Perhaps the biggest danger is that somehow any human being might be tempted to give ChatGPT some kind of "authority status" and to somehow think that it is smarter than any human being.

For example, if you had to "weigh" this:

-- Kalosyni says "xyz" vs ChatGPT says "xyz"

It is possible that some people out there would give more credit to ChatGPT?

This is an excellent point!! That "authority status" is a real problem, especially in people accepting a "good enough" answer and moving on, heedless that they've been given a response entirely void of intellect, human feeling, and introspection (and I use "void" purposefully).

I will always give more authority and respect to Kalosyni than any AI.

AI's real promise (as John Oliver shows) is in narrow applications where huge amounts of data need to be winnowed and organized. And I wouldn't call that "authority" just utility.

Quote from Kalosyni

And in some ways it isn't any different than asking the opinion of another human being. When I was attending a Buddhist Zen group, there would sometimes be new people asking questions that were very "simple" (almost cringeworthy) which most likely they should have just taken the time to answer for themselves (but the Zen teacher would answer anyway).

But at least they were asking questions and getting a human response.

As a librarian, I cringe when I hear other librarians making fun of patrons' "stupid" questions. If someone has a question, they have a void in their information environment that they feel needs filled. The allure of things like ChatGPT is that people can get "good enough" answers and may never know if it's reliable or even accurate.

Quote from Kalosyni

I personally think that this particular question that I started the thread out with: "What are the limits of desires?" to be a worthwhile question. And in some ways the ChatGPT maybe didn't fully answer it, so will need to think some more on it.

Oh, fully agree that it's worthwhile to ask that! I would add that ChatGPT didn't even in reality "answer" the question. It responded algorithmically with segments of text from its training data, mathematically splicing and dicing text that it predicted would occur adjacent to each other, and put it into grammatically comprehensible text. There was no consideration, thought, reflection, scholarship, etc. ChatGPT supplies text that the reader imbues with "authority" that is not present in the product itself.

I thought this segment from this past Sunday's Last Week Tonight with John Oliver summed up the promise and peril of AI pretty well:

Caveat: Please note that this show is on **HBO** so viewer discretion is advised, for language (at least). John Oliver doesn't pull any rhetorical punches.

I'm going to be blatantly and frankly honest and say I didn't even read what ChatGPT responded with. I think it is extremely dangerous to consult "answers" from AI chatbots, no matter how sophisticated, to questions like this. I will admit it can be a novelty or intriguing, but any answers we want to questions like that should be weighed against *human* feelings and sensations. Chatbots can **only** regurgitate text that has been fed into it and its output only uses an algorithm that tries to piece together predictive sentences that statistically occur adjacent to or in proximity to other texts.

I've been discussing this whole chatbot thing with my students in library and information science this semester so I freely admit this is a raw nerve, so to speak. But I think it's insidious and, in contexts like this and similar threads on the forum, is frightening. I would encourage us, as Epicureans, not to succumb to the siren song of AI. Don't let the convenience and novelty of this lull us into consulting this technological oracle as if it had some great insights. It may provide some "food for thought" but we would be better served by growing our own food, to finish that metaphor.

Deep breath.... ... ...

Kalosyni , this is not directed at you in any way, and I apologize if all that came across as such. That's not my intent. But this seemed an opportunity to unload, as it were, and put all my cards on the table in regards to ChatGPT and its ilk.

It appears it isn't the reward of future results for beavers. It's the sound of running water that elicits dam building:

The Sound of Running Water Puts Beavers in the Mood to Build

This one weird trick can help you exploit a beaver's natural instincts.

www.mentalfloss.com

LOL! That was two years ago! I didn't even look at the date.

PS. That said, I think I still have qualms about seeing "instinctual behavior" as evidence of a prolepsis. I'll have to give it more thought, but that's my leaning right now.

I remembered we had a previous thread about beavers, so I thought I'd link to it:

Post

RE: Is There A Relationship Between "Anticipations" and "Instinct"?

To go back to your original question:
Is There A Relationship Between "Anticipations" and "Instinct"?

I don't think so. Instinct has to do with behavior. The Anticipations have to do with perception.

To use your favorite castorine example, beavers build dams over flowing water it appears as a result of stimuli compelling that behavior. There appears to be some sort of necessity involved. There is a visible measurable behavioral result.

From my perspective, Anticipations (I'm going to say similar…

Don

April 24, 2021 at 9:57 AM

This link starts with my post questioning the beaver angle. I'm assessing whether I still agree with myself or not, but thought this could help inform the current thread in any case.

Here are some human child studies. Curious what you think of this in light of the DeWaal studies:

Do Kids Have a Fundamental Sense of Fairness?

Experiments show that this quality often emerges by the age of 12 months

blogs.scientificamerican.com

Psychology Professor Peter Blake Looks at How Children Develop Ideas of Fairness, and How These Ideas Differ Across Cultures and Societies | The Brink | Boston University

Boston University is a leading private research institution with two primary campuses in the heart of Boston and programs around the world.

www.bu.edu

I'm trying to find more videos, but that's a start.

Quote from Joshua

Having now watched both of these videos, I have to say they're far better than any of my summaries might suggest!

Having watched the videos, what are your thoughts on this research and the prolepsis of justice?

I like that little smile Epicurus has in his animation.

Wasn't sure if we had posted this yet. Another approachable, friendly exposition of Epicureanism and its application to our lives... Now and in retirement.

Could we go so far as the Atomic Prophets to give it a psychedelic 60s vibe?

As for the Stoop Kids, I'd also offer Porch Preachers.

Skeptics are Pyrrho Maniacs.

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, κῆπος

I've always taken it that he simply taught in his garden. Just like the Plato's Academy was in the gymnasium named for the Athenian hero, Akademos. Outside the city walls of Athens, the gymnasium was made famous by Plato as a center of learning.

Lyceum is a Latin rendering of the Ancient Greek Λύκειον (lykeion), the name of a gymnasium in Classical Athens dedicated to Apollo Lyceus. This original lyceum is remembered as the location of the peripatetic school of Aristotle.

The stoics were named for the Stoa Poikile, the Painted Stoa, the public arcade in the Agora.

So, it was very common to name the school of philosophy for there they met. Epicurus was somewhat unique I understand because he taught on his own private property - his garden - and not in a public setting.

PS. I should add that some of those descriptions above are cut and pasted from Wikipedia. It was easier to do than composing info about the lyceum and academy.

Epicurean Hetairai As Dedicants to Healing Divinities?

Epicurean Hetairai As Dedicants to Healing Divinities?

www.academia.edu

***

Remembering The Garden: The Trouble With Women In The School Of Epicurus

Abstract Readers of Philodemus are well aware of the difficulties posed by the fragmentary state of the charred papyri. The premise of this paper is that…

brill.com

Abstract

Readers of Philodemus are well aware of the difficulties posed by the fragmentary state of the charred papyri. The premise of this paper is that similar but often unacknowledged obstacles confront us when we read almost any text about Epicureanism, even if the text happens to be relatively well preserved. The problem is that most of our sources— in addition to being late, fragmentary, and highly partisan—are already engaged in the process of reconstructing the first generation of the Garden. Hostile writers are eager to document what they portray as the immoral sensualism of Epicurus. Friendly sources take an apologetic stance against such polemics but may sometimes incorporate hostile material unwittingly. To illustrate the problem, this essay focuses upon the issue of Epicurean women. Ancient and modern authorities seem to agree that the Garden included many female members, but a second look reveals that the sources are not as reliable as has been assumed. In fact, most of what the ancient texts say about Epicurean women is bound up—sometimes inextricably—with the twenty-threehundred- year-old tradition of anti-Epicurean polemic and apologetic response. To generations of Greeks and Romans, the presence of women and slaves in the Garden was emblematic—for good or for ill—of the nature of Epicureanism.

Quote from Pacatus

Quote from Don

To my mind, "feeling romantic" and "feeling sexual passion" convey two similar but distinct feelings.

I think sexual passion (in English now) can be felt in the context of a loving, romantic relationship, as well as in other (nonromantic) contexts. But I cannot say that what I sometimes feel toward my beloved should not be called sexual passion, shared in a loving relationship. That seems to me to be an unnecessary parsing.

Oh, I have no problem with that idea! I think one should feel "sexual passion" for "(one's) beloved"! I would hope any relationship based on mutual attraction in a romantic context would include sexual passion.

My point - granted I didn't say this well - was that a relationship can't be all sexual, erotic passion all the time. Feeling romantic" lead to "feeling sexual passion" but it doesn't necessarily need to. "Feeling romantic" can just mean showing love and affection for one's beloved. A "romantic dinner" need not lead to "sexual passion"... or at least not until you leave the restaurant.

To my mind, the parsing is helpful in the context of emphasis or context. "Feeling romantic" to me seems to express something long-term but also intimate. "Passion" is episodic and intense. Consider a "romantic" embrace or a "passionate" embrace or an "erotic" embrace. I don't get the same connotation from those. All are pleasurable, but they're not equivalent.