Just for the record too, I guess we could consider asking Peter St Andre directly about his thoughts. I have never had any communication with him in the past so I am not aware whether he is reachable or not.
I'll be happy to email him even though the Epicurus texts were posted on 2011. Hopefully he'll remember 
PS: Emailed.
Epicurus is writing about two mistaken ideas about his philosophy here: he does not mean the pleasures of the profligates *nor* τας εν κειμένας απολαύσεις. He is refuting two mistaken understandings of his philosophy. He could very well to my eye be contrasting the mistaken views that Epicureans indulged the wild pleasures of the profligate *and* the exact opposite of indolence or laziness.
<τας εν κειμένας απολαύσεις> = <those that lie in enjoyments> [ those enjoyments that are out of limits] and this is what Epicurus means.
I still don't see how you're going from <those that lie in enjoyments> to getting [ those enjoyments that are out of limits]. That seems to me to be reading meaning into the words that isn't there from what I can see. To me, Epicurus wrote what he meant and meant what we wrote. I'm not seeing that meaning in the literal words.
Epicurus uses a related word (κεμαι with a prefix) in Fragment 207:
Fragment 207. Better to lie serene upon a bed of straw than to be full of troubles on a golden chair at an overflowing table.
κρεῖσσον δὲ σοι θαρρεῖν ἐπὶ στιβάδος κατακειμένῳ ἢ ταράττεσθαι χρυσῆν ἔχοντι χλίνην καὶ πολυτελῆ τράπεζαν.
It seems to me that Saint-Andre was generally correct in using the meaning of "lie down to rest, repose."
Thank you for that, Elli .
To be clear, I completely agree with you that Epicurus taught that we should enjoy pleasure within certain limits. He talked about limits and boundaries a lot.
I'm just unclear how you're saying this one phrase <τὰς ἐν ἀπολαύσει κειμένας> in the ancient text can be translated as "those enjoyments that lie out of limits" when I'm just not seeing any "out of limits" in the actual words.
Let me go back to the text. Using my translation of the letter, I get:
Therefore, whenever we say repeatedly that "pleasure is the τέλος," we do not say the pleasure of those who are prodigal and <τὰς ἐν ἀπολαύσει κειμένας> like those who are ignorant, those who don't agree with us, or those who believe wrongly; but we mean that which neither pains the body nor troubles the mind. [132] For it is not an endless string of drinking parties and festivals, and not taking advantage of slaves and women, nor does an extravagant table of fish and other things bring forth a sweet life but self-controlled reasoning and examining the cause of every choice and rejection and driving out the greatest number of opinions that take hold of the mind and bring confusion and trouble.
Epicurus *could have* talked about "those enjoyments that lie out of limits" there but there are other slanders from "those who are ignorant, those who don't agree with us, or those who believe wrongly" that he could have wanted to emphasize.
I'm just trying to understand how you can interpret those specific words <τὰς ἐν ἀπολαύσει κειμένας> the way you did. If I could ask Bailey and others how they interpreted them the way they did, I would. 
You just happen to be in the forum.
And I don't think I'm using some Platonic dialectical method. Epicurus advocated using words with their natural meaning, as I understand it, not to hide meaning or redefine words like Socrates/Plato did. Toward that end, I don't see "out of limits" expressed by <τὰς ἐν ἀπολαύσει κειμένας> but I can see a natural literal meaning like Saint-Andre's "the enjoyment of sleep."
Elli : I'm curious where you're getting the meaning of "limits". I don't see that sense in LSJ:
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, Κκ , κεδρ-ίς , κεῖμαι
I'm getting the sense of lying down in one place.
I do see this in the Homeric dictionary at Perseus:
3 sing. κέσκετο, fut. κείσομαι: lie, be placed or situated, of both persons and things, and often virtually a pass[I've]. to τίθημι, as κεῖται ἄεθλα, prizes ‘are offered,’
Georg Autenrieth, A Homeric Dictionary, κεῖμαι
but I don't see any sense of "limit" in τίθημι either:
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, τίθημι
I'm not saying I disagree with the sentiment you're expressing, but I'm not seeing how you get from <τὰς ἐν ἀπολαύσει κειμένας> to "those enjoyments that lie out of limits". Just trying to learn and understand.
I highly recommend going to the source material which Nate listed above.
Agreed. An early read through the actual texts was my introduction after discovering Epicureanism through mentions in Stoic material (like Marcus Aurelius and Seneca) and in neo-Stoic materials. Also Alain De Botton's The Consolations of Philosophy. I don't recommend those, that's just where I heard about Epicurus.
For me, I moved directly into Diogenes Laertius 's book 10 devoted to Epicurus as my entry to the philosophy. Then Lucretius...etc. Let Epicurus and the Ancient Epicureans speak for themselves, then move into commentary.
That said, Emily Austin's book is the most accessible short introduction to the philosophy available now in my opinion.
Wow, these responses are very inspiring, a treasure trove! I’m off to read dewitt!
If you haven't read Dr. Emily Austin's book yet, I'd suggest that one as the first book. That is a very approachable introduction. DeWitt is a good introduction but he comes across as more academic even though he's writing for a popular audience. You can tell he's a professor writing in 1954.
I'd have to think about me, but I seem to remember DeWitt writing about Epicurus's connection to Apollo.
And Philodemus throws in the occasional "By Zeus!" into his prose.
And, of course, we have the literal Hymn to Venus from Lucretius.
I don't think they'd necessarily fall under a "personally chosen or preferred god" or not, but those individual gods peppered throughout Epicurean texts are intriguing.
I had an idea, if you were asked “what does it mean to you personally to be epicurean in 30 words or less?”, what would your response be?
I'll take that challenge and it was more difficult to keep to <=30 words than I thought!
With pleasure as my North Star, I choose and reject paths leading onward. I am grateful for all my pleasurable memories, those I have now and those to come.
On p. 240, DeWitt quotes "What, in a word, is to be said of a philosophy that begins by regarding pleasure as the only positive good and ends by emptying pleasure of all positive content?"
This is from Paul Elmer More's Hellenistic Philosophies (Princeton University Press, 1923). You can read the full context of More's quote at the Internet Archive (click this link).
Welcome aboard, @Blank_Emu43 !
(Till the Inquisitors show up, anyway
– but then, Epicurean philosophy, as I see it, is really not amenable to any Inquisition.
NOBODY EXPECTS THE EPICUREAN INQUISITION!
LOL I keep wanting to respond to the questions myself!
PS. Just to say explicitly: That just goes to the thoughtfulness of the questions.
Also: VS11. For most men rest is stagnation, and activity is madness.
I wonder if the word translated as "stagnation" there is relevant?
τῶν πλείστων ἀνθρώπων τὸ μὲν ἡσυχάζον ναρκᾷ, τὸ δὲ κινούμενον λυττᾷ.
My translation is:
For the majority of people, to be at rest is to be bored stiff; but to be active is to be raving like a rabid dog.
ἡσυχάζω I. to be still, keep quiet, be at rest
νάρκη I. numbness, deadness, Lat. torpor
So, fwiw the letter doesn't use the same word as VS11, but I think Cassius may be onto something.
I'm taking a closer look at κειμένας (now that I'm *consciously* aware of its existence!) Thinking out loud and working on a draft of my revision ...
There is the embedded prepositional phrase ἐν ἀπολαύσει "in enjoying; in taking pleasure; in enjoyment"
The whole phrase τὰς ἐν ἀπολαύσει κειμένας could be interpreted as something like "the κειμένας in enjoying; the κειμένας in enjoyment" So, the meaning hinges on κειμένας
I see EpicurusWiki translates that as "we do not mean the pleasure of debauchery or sensuality,"
Bailey has "When, therefore, we maintain that pleasure is the end, we do not mean the pleasures of profligates and those that consist in sensuality,"
I don't see where they're getting "sensuality"
κειμένας is the feminine accusative plural of κείμενος (because of the fem. acc. pl. definite article τὰς in the phrase). κείμενος is the present middle participle of κεῖμαι (...-ing)
As linked above for κεῖμαι, LSJ has (changing the verbs to participles with -ing)
- lying down to rest, reposing; lying idle; lying still
- lying sick or wounded (Note: This one doesn't seem to fit)
- lying dead; lying buried; freq. of a corpse
- being laid up, in store, of goods, property
For discussion purposes, I'm going to try replacing those participles literally in our phrase. So, Epicurueans, per Epicurus, when they say pleasure, "they don't say the pleasures of the prodigal nor..."
- the lying down to rest or sleep, reposing, in enjoyment
- the lying idle in enjoyment
- the lying dead in enjoyment
- the being laid up, in store, of goods, property, in enjoyment
I don't get "sensuality" from any of that nor from the LSJ's extensive definitions. The one I find most intriguing is "the lying buried in enjoyment." Is this a reference to those who take pleasure in imagining a pleasure in the afterlife? Is that also a potential crack at the Cyrenaics who called "calm" like being dead?
I'm going to use Saint-Andre's translation to provide context around that phrase:
So when we say that pleasure is the goal, we do not mean the pleasures of decadent people or [the enjoyment of sleep], as is believed by those who are ignorant or who don't understand us or who are ill-disposed to us, but to be free from bodily pain and mental disturbance.
He does bring up rivals and enemies who are ignorant, don't understand, and are ill-disposed to the Epicurean school. My uncontroversial contention would be that those two phrases - τὰς τῶν ἀσώτων ἡδονὰς and τὰς ἐν ἀπολαύσει κειμένας - are direct references to the positions of those rivals and enemies. That "being dead" connotation continues to intrigue me. I'm not saying that's correct - due to my rudimentary Greek and that no one else seems to pick up on it. However, if we can see translations as diverse as "sensuality" and "the enjoyment of sleep," I'm going to throw my hat in the ring with a "being dead" connotation! However, the last possibility of laying up a lot of goods and property has some potential, too.
Thanks again, Kalosyni , for jump-starting this discussion!!
Short response: By Zeus, Kalosyni !! Saint-Andre is correct!! Thanks for picking up on that.
Longer response: I appear to have become so interested in τὰς τῶν ἀσώτων ἡδονὰς that I completely overlooked καὶ τὰς ἐν ἀπολαύσει κειμένας in 131.
τὰς τῶν ἀσώτων ἡδονὰς is the "pleasures of the prodigal." I admit I got so caught up in the implications of ἀσώτων that I *missed* that whole next phrase. Egads! Mea maxima culpa! I'll need to upload a new version of my translation.
καὶ τὰς ἐν ἀπολαύσει κειμένας:
ἀπολαύσει
I. act of enjoying, fruition
II. result of enjoying, pleasure,
κειμένας < κεῖμαι
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, κεῖμαι
So, that's all a bit embarrassing, but I greatly appreciate your finding that.
If there s Chat feature in the interface for people to submit questions during the program?
I don't think this has been shared before.
Great use of Firefly, Don !
Browncoats forever!
