Posts by Don

Looks sweet! But a monumental task you've set for yourself!

You raise an interesting question about ζωή vs βίος.

It appears entire theses have been written on that very question! Ex...

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/226161443.pdf

An Examination of “Life” in Aristotle Concerning the Distinction Between βίος (Bios) and ζωή (Zoe)

See also

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, βίος

βίος .life, i. e. not animal life (ζωή), but mode of life.

It seems that βίος is more the mode of life, the way of living; ζωή is more the substance of life, the physical processes of life. I can't see this in the references to this in Menoikeus:

124. ὅθεν γνῶσις ὀρθὴ τοῦ μηθὲν εἶναι πρὸς ἡμᾶς τὸν θάνατον ἀπολαυστὸν ποιεῖ τὸ τῆς ζωῆς θνητόν.

So, correct understanding is that death is nothing for us, and this is what makes the mortality of life enjoyable.

126.

Ὀ δὲ παραγγέλλων τὸν μὲν νέον καλῶς ζῆν, τὸν δὲ γέροντα καλῶς καταστρέφειν εὐήθης ἐστὶν οὐ μόνον διὰ τὸ τῆς ζωῆς ἀσπαστόν, ἀλλὰ καὶ διὰ τὸ τὴν αὐτὴν εἶναι μελέτην τοῦ καλῶς ζῆν καὶ τοῦ καλῶς ἀποθνήσκειν.

So, the one who exhorts, on the one hand, for the one who is young to live nobly; and, on the other hand, the one who is old to come to an end nobly is a good-hearted simpleton not only because life is to be welcomed but also because the practice of living well, nobly, and beautifully and the practice of dying well, nobly, and beautifully are the same.

Now... Having said all that....I realize I'm not sure if that's helpful at all to you, Joshua Feel free to let me know!!

Cassius: Take a look at that pdf I linked to. Some good thoughts there.

And I personally don't have a problem with that line:

Every disturbance and unprofitable desire is removed by the love of true philosophy.

Usener calls that U457. disturbing there is ταραχώδης tarakhōdēs which is related to ataraxia.

It looks like sections 27-31 of the letter are supposed to be from an Epicurean text. Again, check out that pdf.

Oh, this looks promising?

http://www.epicuros.gr/pages/en/Tempelis_Epicurus_Porphyry.pdf

Checking our copy of Long & Sedley, The Hellenistic Philosophers, entry 25C , is Usener 221. Their note reads:

Quote

Context: culmination of a long string of ethical quotations from Epicurus. For the Epicurean medical metaphor, cf. Gigante [271], Nussbaum [270].

So, we should look at the preceding "string" to see if we agree with that context in the letter. The anonymous nature of the quotes just gives me pause.

Gigante is in Italian in Cronache Ercolanesi, 1975, 53-61

Nussbaum is her chapter in Schofield & Striker, The norms of nature: studies in Hellenistic ethics (1986)

Quote from Little Rocker

Usener fr. 221)

Since we're getting down the thread here, here's a link to the can of worms that got opened on that fragment :

Thread

Porphyry - Letter to Marcella -"Vain Is the Word of the Philosopher..."

I was talking to @EricR this morning and trying to remember the source of this quote. In tracking it down it seems to come from Porphyry's letter to Marcella -- but do we really know this is attributable to Epicurus? Usener seems to think so, but why? Anyone recall?

U221

Porphyry, Letter to Marcella, 31, [p. 209, 23 Nauck]: Vain is the word of a philosopher which does not heal any suffering of man. For just as there is no profit in medicine if it does not expel the diseases of the body,…

Cassius

June 12, 2023 at 11:34 AM

I would laugh and tell the existential, "Pleasure and pain may be the only universals."

(Maybe that's a little harsh, but that was my first reaction.)

Quote from EricR

So did you experience the world differently prior to reading Epicurean ideas?

Not really having thought about (it just happened gradually), I would say my decision making process has definitely changed.

Quote from EricR

"does the philosophy change your experience of being"?

If by "experience of being" you mean "how one experiences the world", the answer has to be "yes." One's "experience of being" is inextricably linked to what one pays attention to. By focusing on - seeking out - pleasure in both little and big ways, one's experience of the world is changed.

Here's another from the letter to Marcella:

[ U203 ]

Porphyry, Letter to Marcella, 29, p. 209, 1: But insofar as you are in want, it is through forgetfulness of your nature that you feel the want. For thereby you cause to yourself vain fears and desires.

There seem to be quite a few.

Here's the entry in Stobaeus' Florilegium, 82.6 (lxxxii, 6; ΠΒ'.6) that clearly attributes the saying to Pythagoras (Πυθαγόρου ) and cites Porphyry's letter to Marcella.

Ioannis Stobaei Florilegium, recognovit Augustus Meineke ... v.0003.

Well, this is all a bit disturbing It appears Usener was *assuming* that Porphyry's unattributed quote was Epicurus and not Pythagoras?? On the basis that it "sounded" something Epicurus would have said??

PS: Honestly, this makes me skeptical of any Usener fragment not specifically citing Epicurus, the Epicureans, Philodemus, or a similar reference within the ancient text. For example,

This is fine:

[ U380 ]

Aetius, Doxography, I.29.6 [p. 326 Diels] (Plutarch, I.29.2; Stobaeus Anthology, Physics 7.9): Epicurus says that chance is a cause which is uncertain with respect to persons, times, and places.

But this now??

[ U533 ]

Uncertain Epicurean Author, Vol. Herc. 2, VII.21 col. XXVIII: The chief of all goods, even if there weren’t any other, is that by which he who possesses it advances toward virtue.

So who knows who wrote U533 and yet it's included in his Epicurea!

By Zeus! I don't know what to believe now!

Welcome! χαίρε! Salve!

Epicurus The Extant Remains Bailey Oxford 1926 Optimized For Greek On Left : Cyril Bailey : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Epicurus - The Extant Remains - Cyril Bailey - Optimized for Greek on Left Side for On-Line Viewing

archive.org

See p.397 in Bailey link.

He references the similarity to VS54:

54. Do not pretend to love and practice wisdom, but love and practice wisdom in reality; for we need not the appearance of health but true health.

οὐ προσποιεῖσθαι δεῖ φιλοσοφεῖν, ἀλλʼ ὄντως φιλοσοφεῖν· οὐ γὰρ προσδεόμεθα τοῦ δοκεῖν ὑγιαίνειν, ἀλλὰ τοῦ κατʼ ἀλήθειαν ὑγιαίνειν.

There's also The Hellenistic Philosophers by Long and Sedley to borrow from Internet Archive for free (one hour at a time):

The Hellenistic philosophers : Long, A. A : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

2 volumes : 24 cm

archive.org

I mentioned The Oxyrhynchus Papyrus 215 in this episode (Internet Archive link opens to papyrus #215):

The Oxyrhynchus papyri : Grenfell, Bernard P. (Bernard Pyne), 1869-1926 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

26 35 43

archive.org

For a little background on the papyri:

Oxyrhynchus Papyri - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

and the WP article to 215 itself:

Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 215 - Wikipedia

I'm glad Elli brought up Diogenes Laertius (DL) 10.21. I had been meaning to check that line. This is where Epicurus himself also uses the word παίδων and where it explicitly means "slave" because he is freeing Mys, Nicias, Lycon, and Phaedrium:

DL 10.21.b, Epicurus's Will: παίδων = "slaves" (male and female enslaved people)

ἀφίημι δὲ τῶν παίδων ἐλεύθερον Μῦν, Νικίαν, Λύκωνα: ἀφίημι δὲ καὶ Φαίδριον ἐλευθερίᾳ.

Of my slaves, I manumit Mys, Nicias, Lycon, and I also give Phaedrium her liberty.

Epicurus also uses the word to mean girl and children (girl & boy) in his Will. Nowhere does he use the word to mean exclusively "boys" as most translators want to do in the Letter to Menoikeus, DL 10.132. I see no compellig reason to require the "having sex with boys and women" route there.

DL 10.20, Epicurus's Will: παιδίῳ = "girl" (female child)

τὴν δὲ προῖκα τῷ θήλει παιδίῳ, ἐπειδὰν εἰς ἡλικίαν ἔλθῃ, μερισάτωσαν Ἀμυνόμαχος καὶ Τιμοκράτης ὅσον ἂν ἐπιδέχηται ἀπὸ τῶν ὑπαρχόντων ἀφαιροῦντες μετὰ τῆς Ἑρμάρχου γνώμης.

And when the girl comes of age, let Amynomachus and Timocrates pay her dowry, taking from the property as much as circumstances allow, subject to the approval of Hermarchus.

DL 10.21.a, Epicurus's Will: παιδία = "children" (girl and boy)

Ἐὰν δέ τι τῶν ἀνθρωπίνων περὶ Ἕρμαρχον γένηται πρὸ τοῦ τὰ Μητροδώρου παιδία εἰς ἡλικίαν ἐλθεῖν, δοῦναι Ἀμυνόμαχον καὶ Τιμοκράτην, ...

And if anything should happen to Hermarchus before the children of Metrodorus grow up, Amynomachus and Timocrates shall give from the funds bequeathed by me,...

DL 10.22, Epicurus's Will: παίδων = "children" (boy and girl)

σὺ δ᾽ ἀξίως τῆς ἐκ μειρακίου παραστάσεως πρὸς ἐμὲ καὶ φιλοσοφίαν ἐπιμελοῦ τῶν παίδων Μητροδώρου.

But I would have you, as becomes your life-long attitude to me and to philosophy, watch over the children of Metrodorus."

DL 10.132, Letter to Menoikeus: παίδων (καὶ γυναικῶν)

οὐδ᾽ ἀπολαύσεις παίδων καὶ γυναικῶν

I also find Elli's suggestion that we should take γυναικῶν as "wives" and not simply "women" intriguing as well.

I'm still working on the exact connotation of ἀπολαύσεις.

To review, Epicurus is saying in 10.132, that when he says pleasure, he does not mean:

• an endless string of drinking parties and festivals
• ἀπολαύσεις παίδων καὶ γυναικῶν
• an extravagant table of fish and other things

I remain leaning toward the sense of not taking advantage of slaves and women/wives, but now Elli has planted the idea in my mind that... Could the phrase means something like "not enjoying the benefits of children and wives" to go along with an ambivalence toward marriage and children. It seems to harsh, since Epicurus was obviously concerned with the well-being of the children of Metrodorus and was not averse to having children named after him. I don't *think* so... but I'm raising it here for discussion. This continues to be a very illuminating and enjoyable discussion. Would that we just had MORE of Epicurus's writings!!

PS. Even though I brought it up for discussion, I remain highly skeptical of a reading like "not enjoying the benefits of children and wives" as in not being a husband and father. It doesn't fit with the drinking and feasting that bracket ἀπολαύσεις παίδων καὶ γυναικῶν. I still find the possible connotation intriguing but not compelling. Wanted to get that in here.

FYI

Nature’s God - Matthew Stewart

Not only the erudite Thomas Jefferson, the wily and elusive Ben Franklin, and the underappreciated Thomas Paine, but also Ethan Allen, the hero of the Green…

mwstewart.com

One can't read it in an hour, but if anyone is interested in searching it for Epicurus or Lucretius...

Nature's God : the heretical origins of the American republic : Stewart, Matthew, 1963- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

vii, 566 pages ; 25 cm

archive.org

Quote from Godfrey

One interesting tidbit on NewEpicurean.com is Cosma Raimondi. I don't think I've heard of her before and I'll certainly read her letter.

Turns out Cosma is a man's name. Final a is evidently for male names in Italy.

Quote from Cassius

Also there is a Links page here with links to most of the other current Epicurean websites:

https://www.epicureanfriends.com/wcf/link-overv…e&sortOrder=ASC

I'm getting this from your link:

Insufficient Permissions

Access denied. You’re not authorized to view this page.

I'm pinning my hopes on the Europa mission

NASA's Europa Clipper

Earth’s first mission to conduct detailed reconnaissance of Jupiter’s moon, Europa. NASA’s Europa Clipper will determine if this ocean world has environments…

europa.nasa.gov

You are too kind, Elli. This discussion continues to be both pleasurable and enlightening for me as well.