Posts by Joshua

I should have checked here before I posted my reply; it's in the other thread! I more or less agree with Michele.

Some pictures would help!

Above is a mid-15th century French manuscript of Boccaccio's De Claris Mulieribus, from the article Don cited from the British Museum. The figure in green is certainly Leontion. I am merely speculating that the figure in red is meant to depict a portly, sybaritic and lecherous Epicurus.

This image comes from a late-15th century incunabulum of The Nuremburg Chronicle.

In light of these two, as well as all of the other things I mentioned, I am persuaded that the following is likewise an image of Epicurus.

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I tend to think that given the hurdles of communication back in those years it's entirely possible that some people were well aware of what Epicurus looked like and others were not.

It is difficult to assess, to be sure. And Raphael was certainly ideally placed; if anyone knew what Epicurus really looked like, it probably was the Vatican Library!

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Note to self: I need to go back to the article and check this - I do not recall Elli suggesting that the figure of Epicurus was hugging the female figure:

I didn't mean Elli's article; I don't think she looked at De Claris Mulieribus in her consideration. As far as I know, my speculation that the hugging figure was Epicurus is original. It makes sense though; if you're trying to calumniate Leontion, and they certainly were, then the slander is more complete if it implicates Epicurus as well.

Right. The main question with that article is whether the man "hugging" Leontion is meant by the illustrator to signify Epicurus. Groping the 'courtesan', and all that. If it is, that gives us (along with the Nuremburg Chronicle) two drawings of Epicurus in popular Latin texts from the 15th Century that portray him beardless, and in the one case paunchy. Rather how one would portray a Eunuch—or the head of a school of philosophy stereotyped as weak and effeminate, and "fit only for swine".

Raphael was working on the painting less than 20 years after the Nuremburg Chronicle was published, and the Nuremburg Chronicle gives a positive ID to Epicurus' portrait.

I would say that I am...oh, 75 percent convinced that the wreathed figure is Epicurus. There's certainly plenty of room for interpretation!

I don't have much really, but I can summarize my thinking.

I disagree with Elli on the probable placement of Epicurus in the frescoe. I wouldn't at all expect to find him in a central position on the dais—he always taught in a private setting, far secluded from the gymnasium.

I wouldn't be surprised if we found out that even Raphael didn't identify the clustered figures that frame Plato and Aristotle. A place is often given in Greek art and drama to the hoi polloi—in drama, the polis is represented by the chorus. In philosophical dialogues, the 'room' is filled up with named characters who have no speaking parts at all. They exist simply to frame the discussion in a community setting.

I would expect to find him pictured with a book. It is easy to forget how prolific a writer Epicurus was—over 300 scrolls is an impressive and unmatched corpus for that time and place. Diogenes Laertius said as much, and he must have been Raphael's primary source.

I would not expect his portrait to resemble the ancient busts. For one thing, it's not clear whether Raphael knew of them. For another, iconography was more important than actual likeness to these Renaissance painters, and mostly they used contemporary people as models.

The humanist on which this portrait was based was Tommaso Inghirami; and that is suggestive. Inghirami was a learned humanist, a prefect of the Vatican Library, and poet laureate. Erasmus complained of an oration in which Inghirami "treated Christ as a self-sacrificing hero rather than the Redeemer." In Raphael's version, the wreathed figure is supporting the weight of a friend or follower who leans on him from behind with bowed head. A hint of the soteriology that clung to Epicurus, perhaps?

There are other hints that are more incidental, but I'll leave it there for now.

Also, JSTOR is offering free access to up to 100 articles between now and the end of the year.

I'd be curious to pursue it at any rate. But you're right, it won't be a priority. Maybe a video on the "state of play" would be the way to go about it. I didn't record last night by the way, so Tuesday will be the next opportunity.

Thank you for following up on that, Don; I was up far too late last night.

I also found that British Museum article, and I found the illustrations very interesting. Elli wrote an article a few years back on what she believes was the misidentification of Epicurus in Raphael's School of Athens. I think at some point I'll write an article or make a video arguing the other side in that debate, looking at Diogenes Laertius, the Nuremburg Chronicle, and De Claris Mulieribus for clues.

I found something! Well, something I didn't know about.

From the Loeb Classical Library's Greek Anthology:

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ANONYMOUS: I, THE pencil, was silver when I came from the fire, but in thy hands I have become golden likewise. So, charming Leontion, hath Athena well gifted thee with supremacy in art, and Cypris with supremacy in beauty.

A few relevant passages on dreams;

Lucretius

Book 3, 111-116

Munro Translation;

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Moreover when the limbs are consigned to soft sleep and the burdened body lies diffused without sense, there is yet a something else in us which during that time is moved in many ways and admits into it all the motions of joy and unreal cares of the heart.

Bailey translation;

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Moreover, when the limbs are given up to soft sleep, and the heavy body lies slack and senseless, yet there is something else in us, which at that very time is stirred in many ways, and admits within itself all the motions of joy and baseless cares of heart.

There are several passages throughout Book 4 that deal with dreams and the fleeting images that are supposed to cause them. I don't know if it's worth getting into the weeds there, but in Book 4, 962-972, we are given another insight;

Munro;

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And generally to whatever pursuit a man is closely tied down and strongly attached, on whatever subject we have previously much dwelt, the mind having been put to a more than usual strain in it, during sleep we for the most part fancy that we are engaged in the same; lawyers think they plead causes and draw up covenants of sale, generals that they fight and engage in battle, sailors that they wage and carry on war with the winds, we think we pursue our task and investigate the nature of things constantly and consign it when discovered to writings in our native tongue.

And of course the Vatican Saying on dreams, translated by Cyril Bailey;

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Dreams have no divine character nor any prophetic force, but they originate from the influx of images.

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I had heard of it in the past, and probably skimmed some of it, but when I saw how anti-Epicurean it was I just moved on

That was probably my first reaction as well. I've always liked Tennyson, though he is by no means my favorite English poet. In some ways I think I read Lucretius the same way Tennyson himself read De Rerum Natura—in being deeply moved by the power of the poetry, while strongly disagreeing with its ideas.

I saw the Facebook question you shared in the other thread, Cassius, and the answer is yes; I am excited to explore all three writers, and for the next poem I will find something sympathetic to our cause. I have two volumes of Horace on my nightstand, so that will probably be the next selection.

https://livingpoets.dur.ac.uk/w/Alfred_Lord_…retius%E2%80%99

And the full text. Don't feel rushed! I don't mind delays to get things right.

that was mine, my dream, I knew it―

Of and belonging to me, as the dog

With inward yelp and restless forefoot plies 45

His function of the woodland: but the next!

I thought that all the blood by Sylla shed

Came driving rainlike down again on earth,

And where it dash’d the reddening meadow, sprang

No dragon warriors from Cadmean teeth, 50

For these I thought my dream would show to me,

But girls, Hetairai, curious in their art,

Hired animalisms, vile as those that made

The mulberry-faced Dictator’s orgies worse

Than aught they fable of the quiet Gods. 55

And hands they mixt, and yell’d and round me drove

In narrowing circles till I yell’d again

Half-suffocated, and sprang up, and saw―

Was it the first beam of my latest day?

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That's probably as far as I'll get. There's a line in the previous section; "perchance/ we do but recollect the dreams that come/ just ere the waking"

Yes, I think 10 minutes or even shorter is a good target. And once I have a set of them done I can strip the audio and edit it down to a podcast length for a separate release.

I'm scripting the next episode for recording tomorrow evening. A major focus of this passage will be Dreams. I'll dig into the source material this evening, but if you have any points you'd like me to touch upon then we can put them here.

As I work through Tennyson's poem I am beginning to think of it as an "inverted epitome", presented in dramatic form. Tennyson seems to try thoroughly to undermine the system of Epicurus, touching on every point—physics, phenomenology, ethics, theology, etc.

Thank you for the feedback!

I need to look at writing a script before the next recording, to tighten things up a bit. I see that Eoghan arrived at the same conclusion on his videos. I think Don makes a good point about clearer introductions; I certainly should be aiming to interest a wider range of people!

The presentation itself was made in LibreOffice 'Presentation' (a PowerPoint analogue) and I'm simply using OBS Studio as a screen capture (with mic audio) of the presentation on a second display. So I'm actually recording the audio and video at the same time. OBS Studio doesn't have a native editing client, which is why I went to Lightworks.

Whether it makes more sense as a video project or a podcast (or both) is something I'll certainly think about as it develops. Does it help to have text/images on the screen?

I've uploaded the first episode. I had more trouble than anticipated with editing due to technical problems that I don't even begin to understand, but I used other software than I was planning and it worked out alright. I've used the free version for everything;

Captured/recorded in OBS Studio,

File converted in VLC media player

Audio and Video edited in Lightworks,

Saved as .mp4 for publication on Youtube

Enjoy! I don't know how interesting or useful these will be, but they'll be very good experience for me in building toward other projects down the road.

I agree with Don, it was a pleasure tuning in!

As to the issue of the metaphorical 'paean to nature', there are two use cases that always come to mind. The first is Einstein, who had a religious sense of awe, but one that precluded any belief in a personal god. He ascribed, he said, to Spinoza's god. In spite of his clear nontheism he is the most widely misquoted scientist of all time on the the subject of religion—by the religious, of course.

The second case is Darwin; the Lady Hope story demonstrates that when the believers in the supernatural cannot misconstrue your words, they will fabricate new words for your mouth altogether. So that to refrain from poetic usage seems to me to be rather like negotiating with terrorists.

Here is the email exchange with Koen;

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Good afternoon,

I am Joshua Elbert [user jjelbert] writing in connection with the epicureanfriends.com forum, where I am active daily. I am a friend of that site, but not in any way a representative.

I am inquiring about the photography of Erik Anderson as it relates to the key figures of Epicureanism; Erik captured several photographs of ancient sculptures, including a portrait bust from Roman antiquity of Epicurus himself at the Capitoline Museum in Rome.

I am hoping to learn of the copyright status of these photographs; who holds the claim, and whether permission can be granted for use in our videos, websites, and educational and informative material--with attribution to Mr. Anderson, of course.

I would appreciate any assistance or direction.

Thank you,

Joshua Elbert

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Dear Joshua,

After his death I continued his website, by copying it integrally. I think his family inherited all rights? I tried to contact them to ask for permission to continue the website. But it did not receive a response.

Kind and epicurean regards from the Netherlands,

Vriendelijke groet, [n.b. "Kind Regards"]

- Koen de Heer

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Dear Koen,

Thank you very much! And thank you also for maintaing his old site. Can I post your last email to the forum? We have others who are curious, and I am certain they would like to know that you gave your time and energy to revive it. Or I can leave out your name, if you prefer it that way.

I am pleased to know that Epicurus is remembered fondly by one at least, in the land of Huygens and Spinoza.

Gratefully,

Joshua

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Dear Joshua,

Sure! No need to publish anonymously. (But please do correct my linguistic error. Perhaps I should add a note to Erik's website. Up until now I have been reluctant to change the content, even the smallest

detail.

Very pleased to know that it helped someone. As the website was very

insightful for me, in getting acquainted with epicureanism, which was a

philosophical revelation to me, I thought it was terrible that the website went offline, not benefiting others anymore. Erik did a superb job creating his website.

I am not familiar with epicureanfriends.com and I will surf there soon. Indeed, it is not very often you meet someone familiar with

Hellenistic philosophy.

Yours sincerely,

-Koen de Heer

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I have not replied to that last, but certainly will—with gratitude, and an invitation to the forum! As to Koen's English, it is excellent and I have not edited any of it.

The email address I used was contact@epicurism.info

I have had a reply to my email, and will post it here when I have the sender's permission. The writer is indeed from the Netherlands, and has previously attempted to contact Mr. Anderson's family, but with no reply.

The letter itself is full of charm, which is why I am hoping for permission to publish it here.