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Hi Oscar! Godfrey here. Just want to say that I've been thoroughly enjoying the street drummer Dario Rossi. Amazing performance! I love how hard he works, how hard he must have worked for years, and how much obvious pleasure he gets from his drumming. It's inspiring to see how pursuing one's pleasure with passion and perseverance can not only multiply one's pleasure but spread it into the world as well.
Thanks for that!
This is quite helpful. I've been thinking of gratitude more along the lines of a pleasurable practice (a la the contemporary gratitude practice), which in my mind does not cause trouble to self or other. Favor and indebtedness are entirely different and make much more sense in the context of the doctrine.
Thanks Cassius and Elli!
I'm responding to Elli's graphic posted in the graphics area but not posted here yet. Not sure if this is the intent of this thread; maybe this belongs elsewhere....
The translation in the graphic has the word "favor" where some translations use "gratitude" and others use "partiality". Personally, I prefer the use of favor or partiality to gratitude: it seems to me that a blessed being would feel gratitude.
Can anyone comment as to 1) the correctness of the various translations of this word, and 2) the differences that they may have in understanding the doctrine?
I've got the impression that the school of EP is considered to have followed Epicurus's thinking unusually closely through the centuries. But this topic is interesting in that it may be an example of a bit of variation in the doctrine and the potential ramifications of that, which I think Cassius is doing a good service to explore. Given the fragmentary remains of the documentation, it's great to see accessible studies of what exists and how it might fit together.
I've thought of the tetrapharmakos as a pithy mnemonic for beginning students (such as myself) to get a basic understanding of the philosophy. For me, it's been helpful in that regard. That being said, a treatment such as this is a necessary step to a deeper and more nuanced grasp of the ideas.
Wow, that video is hysterical and a little scary! 
Cassius, I appreciate and agree with your comments. The article is definitely not a "deep dive" into EP, but it's a nice starting point for some practical applications of the philosophy. It would be really interesting to see a discussion of Property Management regarding this subject.
Which reminds me of a two-part piece Hiram wrote which I need to read. Here's the link to part 1:
This article showed up in my news feed this morning. It's written by a personal finance blogger who from time to time explores a particular school of philosophy and applies it to practical living and finances. Perhaps he over-emphasizes frugality, but he has a nice take on hedonic calculus (without using the term) and an interesting take on applying the overall philosophy.
https://www.thesimpledollar.com/how-epicurean-…financial-life/
I confess that I'm an aficionado of modernism and have avoided Tom Wolfe's book for years . I'll give it a read though! In the linked article the reviewer mentioned "good modernism and bad modernism". One of the criticisms of modernism is an over-reliance on rationality. To me, the best modern design is actually more "Epicurean" in that it embraces both sensuality and rationality. And pleasure.
Cassius, this touches on something that I've had on the back burner for awhile. I read an interesting article on "embodied cognition" and put it aside to follow up on (which I've not yet done). Here's a link to the article:
https://www.citylab.com/design/2017/07…tecture/531810/
It seems to touch on pleasure and the anticipations if one wants to look at it in a Epicurean context. The book that it refers to in the article is by all accounts quite scholarly and ponderous. There are a couple of lighter books, that I haven't had a chance to read yet, that at first glance seem like they may address similar ideas. "Joyful" by Ingrid Fetell Lee, and "The Architecture of Happiness" by Alain de Botton. This is all very premature from my end but there may be some relevance to your post. Note that these books all deal with design and/or architecture, but there is probably some overlap with art and music for what it's worth....
Elon Musk is a great example of how the hedonic calculus might work. It seems to me to be a process, a continuous feedback loop. As a person is considering embarking on a project, they consider the eventual fulfilment/happiness that they may obtain through working on and completing the project. For any project there is a relationship between ambition (or perhaps altruism) and happiness: something along the lines of "wouldn't it be awesome if I could put man on Mars?!" Or for another person "I'd really be happy if I could get out of bed and walk on the beach!" At this point there is a particular amount of data with which to perform a hedonic calculus, depending on the person's situation.
Once the project is started, the continual (as opposed to continuous?) feedback loop begins. How much hard work will bring the person happiness? Maybe more or less than they thought, so they make an adjustment. Maybe the plan is to sacrifice short term happiness for long term happiness. As more data accumulates, more decisions can be made. And so on.
If we were blessed with infallible reason we wouldn't need this process. But we use our reason to evaluate the data we acquire through the Canon. Then we act on that and discover where our reasoning, or the data, was incorrect. Then we adjust and carry on.
The beauty of this, to me, is that this is simply how life works. With EP, we're conscious of that and work with it. We're not trying to force our lives, and those of others, into a mental construct.
Another way to say the same thing: if virtue is subjective and relative to the individual, how does an individual measure virtue? Through the senses, pain and pleasure, and the anticipations.
Thanks for clarifying that.
It seems like many things in EP are not absolutes but are subject to each person's contemplation with respect to the Canon and the types of desire. "Live unknown" appears to be one of those things.
Social media is a great example of the pros and cons of the idea!
Sorry to expose my ignorance, but what's that in English?
Cassius, when I'm reviewing a desire or considering a project I find it useful as a first step to think about whether the thing in question is something that could be considered an "imaginary desire" for which "no bound or limit can be discovered." After that I think about "what will happen to me if I make this choice or avoidance." So I like the distinction but only as it applies very subjectively and specifically. I also sometimes think of things in terms of being necessary for me in this instance, as well as a pleasurable embellishment for me in this particular instance. Then I consider the pain/pleasure cost/benefit of the embellishment.
An example is a pleasure/pain calculus for a home renovation/remodel. Some things need to be done, some things would be cool to do, and some things are just keeping up with the neighbors.
Hiram, "Prudence, honor and justice are prerequisites for A LIFE OF pleasure" nails it.
AS for autonomy/autarky, I agree with what you say. What I was trying to express is:
- To maintain autarky, enjoy all natural pleasures as long as you don't stress out over money. And do work that you love.
Or more formally:
- Autarky is achieved by avoiding unnatural desires and by living a life where acquisition and disposition of means lead to an excess of pleasure over pain.
To clarify a definition, is it correct that autarky refers specifically to economic self-sufficiency whereas autonomy is more general?
One thing that I'm finding quite interesting is that, after a lifetime of living the Protestant work ethic, it's an entirely different and surprisingly challenging mindset to focus on the goal of living pleasurably. Among the items you list, I think that comedy and laughter can be particularly effective antidotes. In addition to focusing on like-minded friendships.
Your book was one of the first that I read (and enjoyed 
) as I began to explore EP. I have to confess that I was reading and trying to absorb a lot at the time. Too much, actually. Now that I'm getting deeper into the philosophy and beginning to try to live it, it's definitely worth a second read.
I see what you mean with the Nietzsche post. "Natural limit" is a good way of putting it!
(1) My initial involvement with Zen was quite random: I was looking to learn meditation in a group setting so I could better navigate a stressful period of my life, and there happened to be a Zen group around the corner from my house. I'm a bit of a minimalist so the minimalist aspect of Zen appealed to me once I got involved.
(2) Exactly!
As to what spurred my interest in Epicurus: that question is adding some clarity to my thinking.
Background: for several years I sat with a neighborhood Zen group. Although I enjoyed it, I didn't see myself as a Buddhist and eventually began looking for a suitable western practice. Stoicism came to my attention and I studied that for awhile, but I couldn't agree with the contemporary focus on ethics at the expense of physics and logic. I discovered Epicurus while reading Cicero's On The Nature Of The Gods: Epicurus' ideas struck a chord, particularly his physics. The fact that it is a unified philosophy which is still pertinent in the 21st century is very appealing.
I realize now that what I've been trying to do with a "practice" category is a series of brief action statements. For instance, in retrospect I could reduce my personal Zen practice to "daily meditation and mindfulness". These were actions which kept my daily activities in a Zen framework, to which could be added study of the eightfold path, precepts, etc as desired or necessary for greater insight. These are also key to any Zen practice so they aren't just a to-do list of personal Zen-ness.
To apply that to my personal EP outline: delete the Practice category. To the end of Ethics add these action statements (kind of a personal pharmakon?):
- Spend frequent time with like-minded friends
- Maximize pleasure
- Review desires
I am interested in those, as a matter of fact I'm planning to re-read Epicurus' letters for my next foray and eventually read Lucretius. It's quite interesting how EP relates to modern physics, although I'm not a scientist and beyond a certain point modern physics just blows my mind.
I live in a big city, near the beach. On a good night we can see 10-20 stars. 
We have a dog.
As you can tell, I'm making up the "practice" list as I go so I appreciate the input. What I'm trying to do is to focus the EP ethics into a more specific, personal list of practices - a personal approach to living the philosophy; cultivating an attitude. Maybe this turns into a place to put my goals into an EP context. But you're right that it can't one list for everybody.
Looking at it the list is rather mental but I think it needs to be to some degree as a bridge between the ethics and just living pleasurably and avoiding pain.
I'm having some trouble making the leap from the ideas to living the ideas, so a list feels right for me personally and that's why I've included it here. I'm curious if other people have this issue as well and have come up with any good strategies?
"Throughout each day, periodically pause and notice a pleasant sensation: sight, sound, smell, touch, taste" seems like it hits a sweet spot in some way. I'm finding as I work with it that it helps me to check in often and it also makes me think about how I might plan certain activities in the future that focus on specific sensory pleasures. This might be illustrative of a bridge between ethics and very general pleasure/pain....
