Posts by Godfrey

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xp…8943-story.html

Excellent and pertinent article SamJ!

And the Epicurean Canon gives us the tools to know ourselves, which in a nutshell is what I was describing above. It's not just about square towers and bent oars!

SamJ, regarding the atomic universe.... Since everything is material and there is no supernatural or afterlife, this should put all of our focus on our lived life. This has given me an understanding that the only meaning to my life is that which I choose, and that this choosing is a process of being open and attentive to my desires as well as to my sensations, unconscious knowledge, and pleasures and pains. This choosing is an intuitive and hard to describe process, and of course it's different for everybody so it may not even be useful to try to describe it. But my opinion is that working with this process is far more important than any life hack, unless you want to think of it as a life hack. At any rate, this is giving me more confidence in my choices and, as a natural consequence, more focus in my daily activities.

Another implication of the atomic universe is that I find that I have a greater sense of wonder after I've been giving "the nature of things" an extended bit of thought.

We had a thread on this a while back:

Practical Daily Pleasure-- Creating Pleasurable Habits

Lately, I'm finding that I don't think much about seeking particular pleasures. Instead I think about the atomic universe and its implications, and that seems to motivate me to focus on a particular task, either for a day or for multiple days. Interestingly, the tasks that I choose in this manner keep turning out to be pleasurable even if I was originally envisioning them as onerous.

So I've belatedly done my due diligence, and the video is a fascinating stroll through the ancient town of Herculaneum, BUT with nary a peep about the Villa of the Papyri. There's no narration but there are captions describing many of the spaces. It's a walk through the streets, the baths, some shops and some houses. Worth a watch, just be forewarned that there's nothing about Epicurus, the scrolls or the Villa.

This virtual tour of the tomb of Ramesses VI turned up in my feed:

Pharaoh Ramesses VI Tomb

It's pretty impressive, and got me wondering if there are any such things for Epicurean sites.

Here is one for Herculaneum:

Herculaneum Walking Tour

It's a YouTube video of around 90 minutes, with ads. I haven't watched it in it's entirety yet, but it's basically a guided tour of the site. Personally I prefer the 3D reconstructions as you can navigate around as you like, but this type is perhaps more educational. Anyway, if anyone is tired of Netflix this might be a pleasant diversion.

Not sure when you added the edit Cassius, but SVG is a vector. I opened it in LibreOffice Draw and it looks quite crisp. If you need to convert it to AI for Illustrator, there are free online converters; I don't use Illustrator so I don't know if it will import SVG files. Frankly I've never heard of an SVG file before so I don't know if you can work directly with that file or not.

Never heard of this site before! Here's somebody who does 3D modeling:

https://www.fiverr.com/matiikiv/sculp…r-moment-attack

Of course 3D is going to cost more than an avatar....

Things to think about regarding the graphic design: line drawing or tone? Classical or cartoon style? Collect different styles for different uses?

It might be easier to "cartoonify" a Classical drawing than to "classicize" a cartoon drawing.

It also looks like some of the outlines are quite thin when it comes to holding the piece together structurally. That's probably another adjustment the artist will have to make. It's quite a complicated project and, as you say Cassius, it would help to have some fairly simple but accurate graphics to work from. There are actually two design problems to solve: 1) the design of the portraits, and 2) designing the outlines, creases and shadows in a way that they will hold the cut material firmly together in one piece (or as few pieces as possible).

Elli here's the fruit of my efforts....

It might be that the things most useful to your graphist are these two jpgs showing the "floaters" in red. The images on the left are the meshes that were in the stl files that you attached; the images on the right are of curves that I created from the meshes. These images are in the attached zipped folders, along with conversions to ai and dwg. Each ai file has the meshes and the curves as shown in the jpgs. Each dwg file has the curves, scaled up to 35" (889 mm) in height.

Asklepios.zip

EPICURUS.zip

I don't use Illustrator or Draw either, so hopefully this helps. I included the dwg files as that's a format that I'm more familiar with for this use.

I hope this helps!

Hi Elli Elli, I'll see what I can do. I won't be at my computer for a few hours but at the very least I can indicate the floaters in the stl files and also show them on a jpg. Not sure if I can convert to AI or EPS so I'll look into that at that time.

I've prepped files for laser cutting, but never been involved with pricing or arranging for the work.

Looking at the Epicurus file (I'm using Rhino 6) I have a couple of comments:

- From my experience it's normal to provide a 2D file consisting of closed curves (linework). The material thickness is specified in the written order and so there is no need to model the thickness of the finished product. You can include notes as to thickness and material in the file if that's helpful.

- The thickness as shown in the model is much thicker than seems practical, if it was intended to be the actual thickness. But since I think that the file for cutting would be just curves, this doesn't matter; it's just a comment regarding the finished product.

- There are a few "floating" pieces in the model that aren't attached to any other part of the model. It seems that for a wall hanging that it would be best to extend these pieces to a nearby part of the overall piece, so that the final product is just one piece. Otherwise during installation one would have to figure out where these loose pieces go aqnd how to mount them.

As to Cassius' earlier objection to calling it "objective" reality, maybe "material" reality is more accurate.

According to EP as I understand it, this also allows for eidola (dreams, visions of the gods; also thoughts? Not sure about thoughts...) to be received by the senses. It seems like evaluative thinking would follow this sequence as well, with thoughts replacing sensations. I'm not sure what contemporary neuroscience has to say about that, though.

I typed παθη Latin translation into Google and got "passio." Passions distinguishes from sensations but has its own set of problems.

"Embodied cognition" is for me a very descriptive phrase for the prolepseis and perhaps for the entire Canon. But this apparently has woo woo connotations in some circles. Also if it can be used for both prolepseis and for the Canon then that isn't very helpful.

Sorry to say that I'm ignorant when it comes to ancient languages. Most of what I know I've learned from studying Epicurus.

Christian theology is also, I think, extremely challenging for many of us as it provokes an almost visceral reaction based on our prior interaction with it and its involvement with contemporary politics.

Joshua, your division into practical and theoretical is useful for considering Christian teachings as well. While the theory is for the most part fantastical, from time to time I find myself thinking about how religion in general is ubiquitous throughout history and how it must have practical benefits to its "practitioners" in order to be so sticky.

We could just use pathe (although auto-correct turned that into pathetic, which could be a problem). We frequently use ataraxia, which at times involves discussion as to what exactly that means. Pathe emphasizes the original idea, and might promote discussion in a useful way as to what exactly that means. This might be more useful than trying to find an English word that doesn't quite fit.

Having said that, another word that comes to mind is "guide." (There are two guides, pleasure and pain.) This emphasizes the functional aspect of the pathe and is a good example of an English word that doesn't quite fit.

Similarly with prolepsis: anticipations and preconceptions don't quite fit and we all have a favorite one of these that we use. Once a person understands the basic ideas, that interchangeability is fine.

You're welcome Don ; my pleasure!

This is a continuation of notes on Gosling and Taylor's The Greeks on Pleasure, begun here: Gosling & Taylor, The Greeks on Pleasure (Notes up to but not including Epicurus) and continued here: Gosling & Taylor, The Greeks on Pleasure (Notes on Epicurus)

For the most part these are quotes and/or paraphrases from the book; my comments are italicized and in parentheses. Text in bold is my emphasis. The authors of the book are not Epicureans, theirs is an academic take on Epicurean pleasure, worthy of discussion. There is much more to their discussion of Epicurus than I’ve been able to include here, but I think I’ve covered their main points.

Chapter 19: Katastematic and Kinetic Pleasures

(Note: this entire chapter is posted at Gosling & Taylor, On Katastematic and Kinetic Pleasure. What follows here is my personal notes; if you’re interested in their complete argument I’d advise reading the full chapter. I’ve kept my notes pretty brief)

19.2.2 What perception reveals to us directly is the goodness of pleasure and the badness of pain and thereby that the only unqualified good is pleasure without pain. Since any painless perception is pleasant, perception reveals the goodness, though not the achievability, of aponia. The value of ataraxia is parasitic upon that of aponia, since the only ataraxia worth having is that which comes from pleasant memories and confident expectations of sensory pleasures of a painless kind. Thus the body's pleasures have pride of place. (Does this bolded statement conflict with, or elaborate on, their statement in 18.3.15: “Once one is convinced of the truth of Epicurus' doctrines and has incorporated his teachings into one's life, one ceases to worry and lives a life as near to ataraxia and aponia as is possible for one.”)

19.2.3 Epicurus is inclined to use ataraxia and aponia as conditions of life, not particular pleasures.

19.2.4 Since aponia is just a condition of painless perception it does not mean that Epicurus thought of a non-perceiving state as pleasurable.

19.3.2 Katastematic pleasures refer to "the well-established katastema (condition) of the flesh. Not to replenishment, movement, or katastasis eis phusin (restoration to the natural state). The latter was an argument against pleasure, on the basis that what was being returned to was the good, not pleasure. When the organism is operating properly it will be in a state of pleasure, and pain is a matter of unnatural operation.

19.3.3 Therefore kinetic pleasures are not a different kind than katastematic ones: they too are sensory and a matter of some part of the organism operating properly. Due to this most of Cicero can be discounted in this regard.

19.4.27 Ataraxia is achieved by the removal of superstitious fear and false beliefs, the constant memory of the truth, and attention to present experience and perception. Now the mind is free of disturbance and so memory and expectation operate without anxiety. Similarly when physical pain is removed the body operates without pain and that will mean that always some pleasurable and painless perception is occurring, a condition of good cheer.

19.4.30 When the organism is functioning harmoniously it is always having some form of perception; since the operation is harmonious the perception is pleasant and without pain; that is just what aponia is. Ataraxia is the condition when, because of correct views, our expectations are undisturbed by fear, our desires do not pursue empty objectives and our memories are pleasant: this leaves us to enjoy our pleasures unanxiously.

Chapter 20: Pleasure as a Criterion of Truth in Epicurus

20.3.1 The doctrine that the highest pleasure is freedom from pain and distress = the highest pleasure is freedom from consciousness of improper functioning.

20.3.3 The perception of an oar in the water being bent is true, but determining if it represents reality requires comparison with other perceptions. Similarly with pleasure: the feeling of pleasure regarding a given stimulus is true in that it reveals the proper functioning of the relevant part of the organism. The belief that it is choiceworthy, however, requires confirmation by other appearances.

20.3.4 Pleasure is an unimpeded actualization of the natural state. The psycho-physical organism has a built-in urge toward its proper functioning, and consequently sees the pursuit of pleasure, understood as consciousness of proper functioning, as the way of life dictated by man's nature and hence as the appropriate way of life for a man.

20.3.4 In order to avoid error one must not affirm that things are precisely as they appear, but one must distinguish those judgments which are confirmed by further appearances and those which are not, taking the former as true and the latter as false. One's judgement must be determined, not by the immediate appearance (as of pleasure or pain), but by the goal which nature sets: the life of unhindered, that is painless, physical and mental functioning.

20.4.1 As thus interpreted, the theory is open to a basic objection. We have argued that the physical reality which is truly represented by the feeling of pleasure is the proper functioning of that part of the organism where the pleasure is felt. But if that pleasure leads, not to the unhindered functioning of the whole organism, but to subsequent pains, i.e. malfunctions, then surely the original function which was felt as pleasure could not have been proper functioning, since the proper functioning of any part must be what contributes to the smooth functioning of the whole. This is a difficulty for the theory, not the interpretation, and it applies for any theory (not only Epicurean) that maintains that pleasure is a restoration of the natural state and that certain pleasures result, not in the restoration of the natural state but in unnatural states accompanied by distress. (Does 20.3.3 above overcome this objection? Isn’t that how the theory describes the physical reality?)

20.4.1 This objection can be met, given more precision in the formulation of the theory. Example: the proper functioning of the nutritive organs consist in the ingestion of food, in that this allows the organism as a whole to feel free from the distress of hunger. Therefore we are constituted to feel pleasure when we eat. If someone eats to excess, the defect does not lie with his nutritive organs, which are working properly and so produce pleasure, but in his lack of recognition of the limit to which that function should be exercised. Epicurus addresses this in PD 18-21.

20.4.2 What about empty desires, which don’t contribute to any natural good? Practical wisdom encourages eliminating these, yet as long as pleasure is felt they are considered to be good. If these are not appropriate to the organism, but to a disordered nature, then that empties the notion of appropriateness is emptied of content. (Again see 20.3.3 above.)

20.5.2 The main objection to the account of pleasure, that it cannot deal successfully with unnecessary pleasures, is in fact an objection to the general theory of Epicurus. That theory is an impressively systematic attempt to revive the early physiological accounts of pleasure as a form of perception, and to apply it to the epistemological theory which fitted the general account of perception. In thus striving for generality it paid the usual price, failure to deal with recalcitrant counter instances. As always, the multi-colored butterfly of pleasure eludes the net of necessary and sufficient conditions. (Once again see 20.3.3. Since I’m an amateur at this, can anybody explain this last sentence to me? What would be necessary, and what would be sufficient?)

Chapter 21: The Stoics

(As I understand this chapter, their argument is that the Stoic theory of pleasure would be a part of the idea that any impression must be assented to. My thinking is that while this has some value for therapy for, say, addiction or anger management, this is not how pleasure functions. Pleasure and pain occur as perceptions, before the opportunity for assent. Choice and avoidance again are as described in 20.3.3.)

21.7.1 A fully adequate theory of pleasure needs to combine the Stoic insights (regarding pleasure as a belief, an assent) with elements drawn from other theories, in particular something more like an Aristotlean/Epicurean theory of enjoyment. Gosling regards being pleased, rather than enjoyment, as the central concept in the elucidation of the complex phenomena of pleasure. The book ends with a footnote referencing another book by Gosling for his take on a complete theory of pleasure. (A poor excuse for a cliffhanger if you ask me.)

(This concludes my decidedly non-scholarly notes on the book. It is an excellent though very academic book, but were it not for the fact that over half of the book is dedicated to Plato, I would heartily recommend it. It was challenging but worth the effort that I put into it. A richer knowledge of ancient Greek philosophy than I possess, and perhaps more effort than I was able to put into it, would prove it to be richly rewarding.)

Evangelism is the word that popped into my mind, too, but it really makes me cringe given the state of contemporary religion!

Educating? Teaching? Community building? Making friends? Anything but evangelism