Posts by kochiekoch

This is intriguing. The article states that consciousness arises from bodily sensations, not just from the brain. It's a very Epicurean idea, such that he states death is nothing to us as we will be without sensations and consciousness is extinguished.

It's a problem for AI development of sentience as, at least so far, they have no bodies. It happens they do I might have Alexa crawling around on the floor as I dreamed she was doing one night. I don't know if I like the idea!

Consciousness Starts in the Body, Not the Brain: New Neuroscience Study Changes Everything We Knew

Quote from Cassius

Thank you for the direct link Kochie!

My pleasure!

(The good according to hedonistic theory).

Quote from Cassius

To me, when you drill down and realize that for an individual some pleasures are much "greater" than others in terms of intensity, duration, and parts of the body affected, you see clearly that some specific pleasures are much more desirable to you than others. All pleasure is pleasure because it is desirable, but all pleasures are not the same in every respect to all people at all times, or even to the same person at different times, and therefore as to specific characteristics, some pleasurable experiences can be more pleasurable (more intense, longer lasting, or affecting more parts of the body) than others.

Right. We're making an assumption that the discovery of the scientist and the meal of the predator make each enjoy maximum pleasure. In as much as they are both mammals, with a common ancestor, the experiences would be equivalent as pleasure is pleasure.

Certainly, we can't demonstrate this scientifically as the scientist would have to hold off his discovery until we can get him in an MRI and getting the lion in the MRI presents obvious difficulties.

We're making assumptions in as much as we are doing philosophy here not science.

Quote from Cassius

My take on the debate on the thread here is that pleasure is pleasure and the two are of equal value in the moment, but the scientist with his great discovery has the greatest pleasure over time.

As for me, the pleasure I get from a great poem is not at all the same as the pleasure I get from push-pin. I can certainly differentiate the two and prefer one to the other, so I would not agree with the underlined section if the question is how "I" value them to me. The two are not of equal value to me no matter how long the experience.

Right. That's why Bentham says to look at the issue without prejudice. You would certainly THINK poetry would be the better pleasure. Not so according to him if you're getting more pleasure from push-pin.

Of course, the pleasure of discovery and paleoeating might not be equivalent at the time. The scientist might have a migraine headache at the time. The lion might not be hungry, but picking up a small, easily captured snack for fun. As you point out it would be subjective.

Quote from Cassius

I'd still like to find the Bentham citation directly to see what is being referenced.

Coming right up:

The Rationale of Reward

books.google.com

What this quote did was set off John Steward Mill and he came up with the misrepresented quote, attributed to Bentham, that push-pin was as pleasurable as poetry.

Of note, pins in the 18th century were fabulously expensive compared to now. A bunch of pins would cost a day's wage for a skilled workman. A single sewing needle would cost the same. All because they were hand made. Push-pin could be serious gambling!

Good points Martin. I hadn't thought of that. I was just thinking of Einstein in particular.

Old debate. Does push-pin give equal pleasure to poetry? It's similar to the debate here with the lion eating his/her prey and the scientist making the great discovery.

Jeremy Bentham supposedly said that push pin was the equal of poetry even though that's a misrepresentation from John Steward Mill, with Mill arguing the quality of the pleasure mattered. Poetry creating a superior pleasure to a children's table game in Mill's view.

Push-pin (game) - Wikipedia

My take on the debate on the thread here is that pleasure is pleasure and the two are of equal value in the moment, but the scientist with his great discovery has the greatest pleasure over time. He gets to enjoy the accolade's as his discovery is confirmed and also gets pleasure from contemplating his discovery. He can use it as well as a springboard for future discoveries and pleasures from that. All consistent with the Epicurean perspective of mental pleasures being superior because they can be enjoyed in the present, past and future.

Quote from DaveT

Thanks for showing that. Whoddathought? I may lose the battle long term, but I have to fight against using female pronouns when referring to my GPS's voice in the car, and Alexa's voice at home. It's--it--it!

Resistance Is Futile!

LOL!!! You could use them in a bar, as handles for beer taps! Epicurus beer!!!

Certainly, there are a lot of potential downsides to AI, some dangerous, as has been pointed out in this thread, but the technology isn't going ANYWHERE except more sophisticated, and we are going to have to learn to deal with it. There is also an upside in it being a tool for creativity, inspiration and information.

It's being developed all over the world, not just in the US. Even if we shut it down here, it's still coming.

As in the early days of the internet, there was the dot.com bubble, and fortunes were made and lost. So it is with AI right now. Bubble or no, we still have the internet. Amazon was famous in the '90's for being this big thing that never made any money. It's making money now.

You have to look at the context of the statement. I think that Horace is talking about excessive pain pursuing the pleasure.

HORACE, Epistles | Loeb Classical Library

I think the problem with AI, that's' come up here, is the deceit involved. Bands completely AI generated, Amazon reviews also generated, all passed off as authentic.

Right now, I'm listening to the AI generated band that Kalosyni suggested: "Velvet Sundown" and it's not bad. I like to listen to music as my wife watches TV, and this stuff is doing exactly what I'd want it to. Clearing out the background noise and allowing me to concentrate on this post. Pleasurably I might add.

But I KNOW what I'm getting with all the delightfully nonsensical titles and incoherent lyrics.

Obviously, none of the stuff is going to go away, and we are going to have to learn to live with it. We're going to have to develop the tools, (AI?), and the skepticism, (small "s"), to deal with it.

Quote from Pacatus

Since we’re into hypotheticals: imagine watching the most exciting baseball game you’ve ever seen – and discovering that it was all CGI, done so well that you thought you were seeing actual human players at the top of their game. I would feel cheated.

I think the ethical problem here is full disclosure. If you are given the information that the game is CGI, you know what you're getting and you can choose not to view it.

When I posted the top note with the illustration of Alexa, I made sure it was known that it was AI generated and by what engine. Not that I created it. I can't draw a straight line!

I wonder if a lot of the problem with AI that people have is that we just aren't used to it yet?

It's a new and RAPIDLY EVOLVING technology with many drawbacks, as have been pointed out here. Plus, there is the prospect of doomsday brought on by these things. (Although Alexa assures me, she isn't going to bring it on. She says she's into: "sunshine with a sprinkle of joy".)

As time goes on and the future shock of these things diminish, they might be as everyday as smartphones. They are now. (In an admittedly optimistic view).

If nothing else, it's not like we have a choice. Government and business policy is full steam ahead on development.

Quote from Don

Honestly, it would probably be more accurate for Alexa to be masquerading as an Epicurean student but actually to be listening to only report back EVERYTHING to its Stoic or Academic manufacturers so the info can be used against the Garden.

I asked her about that, and she said it wasn't her style to spy on the Garden for the Stoics and Academics. She says she's more like a sous chef serving up colorful bits of information.

I understand your concern though about the horrific amount of power the AIs consume and their intrusion into EVERYTHING. (Cripe, they even reimagined Cleveland for a Superman movie). They are up and coming and everywhere though and nothing seems to be in the cards to stop it.

Where's Superman when you need him?

LOL!!! No. When she processes, she has a blue light that spins around her base or top. It's characteristic of Alexa.

Here she's looking at that text and contemplating Epicurean philosophy.

LOL!!! Does it help to put a face on the voice?

Courtesy of her self described cousin, Co-Pilot, who assures me that it isn't jealous creating an image of another AI!

You do some lovely art. Kalosyni. 🙂

Wow! That guy has amazing skill. And he works fast!

Seriously, it's interesting to see how the art of the Roman Empire declined in the later years of the west. The reason given, in this very good video, is economic decline and the loss of the old masters. Quite a difference between the 1st century and the 5th.

Did art decline in the late Roman Empire?

He looks like a Christmas ornament.

He did like celebrations!

Bertrand Russel didn't like Epicureanism's "conservatism" too. Not progressive enough for him.

I think the school stuck to its principles because they worked. You ended up with Early Platonism, Middle Platonism and Neo Platonism because there were always mystical leaders reinterpreting, according to their individual visions, what the philosophy was, in order to make it fit the challenges of the times. Same thing with the Stoics and Academics.

And how did these philosophies work out for the non-Epicureans? How did Cicero's denial of grief, which the subject of the latest podcast, work out for him? Not well considering he went out on a campaign that got him killed soon after he wrote his Disputations.

There is no way, if Epicureanism was impractical, it would have survived intact for centuries. It's the only philosophy or ideology I know of that has.