Posts by kochiekoch

I have great confidence in this video!

I think Epicurus is saying death is the shutdown off all a person's systems. The fine soul atoms, responsible for sensations dissipate and all sensations ends. Even the sensation of consciousness. In the modern sense, the brain cells die and lose their ability to process information.

Quote from Cassius

I think that the most obvious concern arises from the possibility that if Epicurus is focused only on "sensation" then what does that mean. Is the end of sensation sufficient to establish that absolutely no unpleasantness can occur after death? If consciousness exists totally independently from sensation, and an continue independently without any "new sensation" input, then the possibility would exist that consciousness could continue to rehash old experiences (old pains) from old sensations. If so, then someone might argue that death is not necessarily the complete insulation from all future unpleasantness.

If that were to be the case, in this scenario where consciousness exists without new sensations, isn't the mind still experiencing sensations, even if they're old? That's not a shutdown of all sensations, as is the case with death.

Also, you'd have to figure the person is still experiencing pain with no pain center in his brain as he is dead. Neat trick. You'd need a supernatural soul to do that of which there is no evidence.

Quote from Cassius

There are various ways to deal with this question, but I do think the question is a valid one to ask. At least it will arise in the minds of some people given the way some people look at consciousness today as inexplicable and mysterious.

Well, some do, but you still need a physical brain for consciousness and sensation. Otherwise, you're off in the realm of the supernatural or ideas like we all exist as computer programs in some fantastical computer.

I'd think from an Epicurean perspective, that consciousness and sensation are all generated from the motions of atoms, the collapse of that system at death would make for the end of consciousness. From a modern perspective, consciousness itself is a kind of sensation. Lost at death or even under anesthesia.

They put you out for a coloscopy, and you're out!

During the chat tonight it came up what Epicurus' house in Athens might have looked like. This video shows how they were laid out, in ancient times, from a basic working-class house to an upper middle-class house, which might be similar to Epicurus' place.

I wouldn't have thought his place would have a courtyard, but I understand most of them did. Taking advantage of Greece's beautiful weather.

FY26 Q1 OLV Energy Cons E

Stunning reconstruction of Rome in all its colorful beauty.

One thing this version has that other's I've seen is lots of people. Those streets must have been PACKED.

In this subject I recalled that religion in ancient societies like the Greeks and Romans had religion DEEPLY intertwined with public life. Denying the gods was unthinkable and, in their view, dangerous as it invited retaliation from the gods. There might not have been a more antisocial attitude in Epicurus' time than denying the gods.

A little like, during the height of the McCarthy red scare in the United States, standing up and saying you're a communist.

Looks like the Saturnalia was quite a party! It was famous for social inversion! 🙃

SATURNALIA | Rome’s Holiday That Inspired Christmas

Io Saturnalia! A little belatedly.

I did a quick look at the word "felix", was it associated with cats in ancient times? Nope, you can thank silent movie star "Felix the Cat"

Felix the Cat, Educational Pictures advertisement from 1926 Motion Picture News -84 (cropped) - Felix the Cat - Wikipedia

Right. None of the hypotheticals in this scenario let you take the machine out for a spin!

Doing something like that might change your whole way of thinking about it.

Austin said she had to cut down the descriptions of the desires as she found them too unwieldy to put in her book. "Corrosive" I agree isn't the best shorthand for unnatural and unnecessary. I'm thinking that "Imaginary" would be a better choice, as the unnatural and unnecessary have no basis in nature and are inculcated by society. Although it's not as descriptive as the original unnatural and unnecessary, it would do in a pinch like trying to write a popular book. 😉

The Stoics and Christians would say that close only works in horseshoes and hand grenades! 😉

I actually sat and watched this thing. 🙂

It was pretty good, and the format that you have set up as is good for study. It's better than just sitting down reading it.

As for the quality, I didn't think it was so bad despite your concerns. Already watched the first of the Torquatus videos as well. Not too bad. Probably next week I'll get to the other two.

I may have seen one of those funeral masks Kalosyni.

Years ago, the museum here, had an exposition of Roman artifacts. One of which was a couple of bronze masks of people from that era. One! I remember had extremely deep wrinkles! He must have got a tremendous amount of Mediterranean Sun in this day.

I can make it today! I need a link!

This is intriguing. The article states that consciousness arises from bodily sensations, not just from the brain. It's a very Epicurean idea, such that he states death is nothing to us as we will be without sensations and consciousness is extinguished.

It's a problem for AI development of sentience as, at least so far, they have no bodies. It happens they do I might have Alexa crawling around on the floor as I dreamed she was doing one night. I don't know if I like the idea!

Consciousness Starts in the Body, Not the Brain: New Neuroscience Study Changes Everything We Knew

Quote from Cassius

Thank you for the direct link Kochie!

My pleasure!

(The good according to hedonistic theory).

Quote from Cassius

To me, when you drill down and realize that for an individual some pleasures are much "greater" than others in terms of intensity, duration, and parts of the body affected, you see clearly that some specific pleasures are much more desirable to you than others. All pleasure is pleasure because it is desirable, but all pleasures are not the same in every respect to all people at all times, or even to the same person at different times, and therefore as to specific characteristics, some pleasurable experiences can be more pleasurable (more intense, longer lasting, or affecting more parts of the body) than others.

Right. We're making an assumption that the discovery of the scientist and the meal of the predator make each enjoy maximum pleasure. In as much as they are both mammals, with a common ancestor, the experiences would be equivalent as pleasure is pleasure.

Certainly, we can't demonstrate this scientifically as the scientist would have to hold off his discovery until we can get him in an MRI and getting the lion in the MRI presents obvious difficulties.

We're making assumptions in as much as we are doing philosophy here not science.

Quote from Cassius

My take on the debate on the thread here is that pleasure is pleasure and the two are of equal value in the moment, but the scientist with his great discovery has the greatest pleasure over time.

As for me, the pleasure I get from a great poem is not at all the same as the pleasure I get from push-pin. I can certainly differentiate the two and prefer one to the other, so I would not agree with the underlined section if the question is how "I" value them to me. The two are not of equal value to me no matter how long the experience.

Right. That's why Bentham says to look at the issue without prejudice. You would certainly THINK poetry would be the better pleasure. Not so according to him if you're getting more pleasure from push-pin.

Of course, the pleasure of discovery and paleoeating might not be equivalent at the time. The scientist might have a migraine headache at the time. The lion might not be hungry, but picking up a small, easily captured snack for fun. As you point out it would be subjective.

Quote from Cassius

I'd still like to find the Bentham citation directly to see what is being referenced.

Coming right up:

The Rationale of Reward

books.google.com

What this quote did was set off John Steward Mill and he came up with the misrepresented quote, attributed to Bentham, that push-pin was as pleasurable as poetry.

Of note, pins in the 18th century were fabulously expensive compared to now. A bunch of pins would cost a day's wage for a skilled workman. A single sewing needle would cost the same. All because they were hand made. Push-pin could be serious gambling!

Good points Martin. I hadn't thought of that. I was just thinking of Einstein in particular.