Posts by Cassius

Yes I agree we can pick up the pace and that outline will be helpful! Most of what needs to be said about death we've covered already, and we have four more major topics to pick up when we're finished with death.

I was thinking Don might weigh in from another direction as well. Don is very strong on PD10 being a reference to reprobate acts being bad because they do in fact lead to pain in most cases. I always insist that it is important to observe that there is no "necessity" that they lead to a bad result, and that that is part of the point of PD10. But we both agree that Epicurus is saying that pursuing the life of a reprobate is a bad idea. And in that case someone who is against making lists of undesirable characteristics might say that both Don and I sound like prudish Stoics to dare to say anything that implies that being a reprobate is generally bad.

As I read Kalosyni, she is objecting to Lucretius listing these character traits as undesirable "in general" because she thinks that sounds too much like a Stoic.

I would apply Don's reasoning on PD10 to this list by Lucretius, and I think most people would say, as Don would, that even though it might be theoretically possible that a particular human being might pursue these courses and yet still manage to experience a happy life, the weight of experience is strongly against anyone being successful in doing so except in the most unusual of circumstances.

(As a reminder, the list is : (1) lusts that tear a man in two and trouble his life! How many (2) fears will follow! What (3) insolence, (4) filth, and (5) shamelessness! How many Disasters they deal! What (6) sloth and (7) debauchery!)

Therefore I do not think it smacks of Stoicism to think that generally sloth and debauchery and filth and the rest are going to lead in the end to more pain than pleasure. Therefore I think it's fine for an Epicurean like Lucretius to create a list of such things to be generally avoided.

The red line I think needs to be respected is that you need to be clear, like Lucretius is being, that this list doesn't come from the gods, or from abstract logic divorced from experience. An Epicurean gets lists like this from practical experience, and that's all the difference in the world from a Stoic who says that these things are "bad in themselves" or "bad because Zeus / Home / Plato's ideal forms say so."

So I think an Epicurean can easily maintain a personal list of desirable character traits that is in many cases (not all) similar to a list written by a Stoic. Certainly a Stoic would embrace Lucretius' list (and that's probably why Kalosyni is suspicious of it.) Further, making such a list is explicitly what PD05 is doing in saying that the happy life requires prudence, honor, and justice.

But the difference in how you get your list, and how you support it and explain it to other people, makes all the difference in the world.

I don't agree that this list indicates what you are concerned about, but before I weigh in much more I'd like to hear what others have to say. This should be a good opportunity to talk about where Stoicism and Epicureanism diverge and why.

Welcome to Episode 278 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world.

Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our podcast episodes.

This week we continue our series covering Cicero's "Tusculan Disputations" from an Epicurean viewpoint. This series addresses five of the greatest questions in philosophy, with Cicero speaking for the majority and Epicurus the main opponent:

1. Is Death An Evil? (Cicero says no and Epicurus says no, but for very different reasons)
2. Is Pain An Evil? (Cicero says no, Epicurus says yes)
3. Does the Wise Man Experience Grief and Fear? (Cicero says no, Epicurus says yes)
4. Does the Wise Man Experience Joy and Desire? (Cicero says no, Epicurus says yes)
5. Is Virtue Sufficient For A Happy Life? (Cicero says yes, Epicurus says no)

As we found in Cicero's "On Ends" and "On The Nature of the Gods," Cicero treated Epicurean Philosophy as a major contender in the battle between the philosophies. In discussing this conflict and explaining Epicurus' answers to these questions, we will deepen our understanding of Epicurus and how he compares to the other major schools.

Today we continue debating the nature of death in Section XXXII.

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Our general discussion guide for Tusculun Disputations is here: https://epicureanfriends.github.io/tusculundisput…lish/section:12

And a side-by-side version with comments is here:

EpicureanFriends SideBySide Commentary on TD

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In the past we have had threads that touched on the issue of pain, pleasure, and addition, such as this one.

In addition, we regularly get questions such as:

I've been rethinking my relationship with XXXXX and how to navigate it in a way that’s consistent with a grounded materialist worldview. The religious structure of some self-help programs (like AA in particular) just doesn’t seem consistent with what Epicurus would recommend.

First of all, we always remind people that clinical / biological / genetic problems require professional help. No matter what the Stoics might say, you can't through sheer willpower "think" your way out of problems like that. Epicurus is reported by Diogenes Laertius at 117 that "A man cannot become wise with every kind of physical constitution, nor in every nation." It seems to me that that "physical constitution" part definitely includes issues that we'd describe as "clinical."

So the first step in this analysis is always to determine if you have a problem that requires professional help, and then get that professional help if you do.

But if the problem we are talking about is more on the order of "bad habits," then Epicurus definitely had things to say about that, such as:

Quote

VS46. "Let us utterly drive from us our bad habits, as if they were evil men who have long done us great harm." (Bailey)

That certainly seems to indicate that bad habits are to be taken seriously and are to be dealt with vigorously, not because there is anything intrinsically sinful in them, but because they produce great pain.

It's also likely that bad habits and addictions were addressed face to face among the ancient Epicureans, and it's for that reason that we see so much discussion of "frank speech." A personal level of interaction and accountability is very helpful and probably necessary. That's something that probably doesn't exist and probably impossible to get in an online communities.

Also, when we get questions about particular additions or habits, it's helpful to find someone in the community with recovery experience in the precise issue (either firsthand or as a therapist). If someone has experience in that area and is willing to let others know about it, starting a Zoom support group could be a baby step toward a fuller expression of Epicurus' original vision of friendship and support. If this strikes you as something you would be interested in volunteering to do in some capacity, let me know by private conversation and we can explore setting something like that up

We've definitely had people let us know that they've been through tough experiences and would have benefited from support with philosophically like-minded people. So if anyone has any experience or interest in being resources in such situations, again let us know.

So let's use this thread for those who can offer general comments that they've found helpful themselves and that fit within an Epicurean perspective. We'll see what direction this goes, and if we have any people who are interested in volunteering to be resources, let us know.

Quote from Eikadistes

Flickr, Imgur, Photobucket, DeviantArt, and Pinterest

Thanks for that list - that's what I've lost track of. I will take a look at those. Obviously no one wants to post and then lose images, so we need to investigate how long images stay there. I suppose there's some kind of facility through Google that does something similar

In a nearby thread today I have raised the issue of image sharing in the context of long term sustainability of the website - making sure our data does not balloon so large as to be unmanageable if we ever have to change web providers.

In addition, AI image generation raises all sorts of issues, one of which is that many people (not excluding me) are tempted to explore the technology.and post endless streams of draft graphics.

It seems to me in past years on other forums that people were urged to used image sharing websites (I seem to remember imgur as a name?) and then post their images here as links rather than uploads. The posts end up looking the same as now, but the images are stored elsewhere and don't count against our storage or transfer limits.

So this thread is to solicit ideas from our tech-oriented people on ideas how to implement such a system. We will obviously continue to have image uploads here as well, but lots of short-term-use photos could just as well go somewhere else.

I am sympathetic to Eikadistes ' view and will solicit comments from the moderators about how we can balance competing interests.

Even more than that, however, I need to review where we are on disk space and figure out a way to make sure that we keep image uploads that aren't long-term assets under control.

On that point too I'll ask for comments (separate thread) as we need to consider recommending some sort of image-sharing site so that people know how to post large images and then just post the links here. That will show up the same way but won't permanently occupy disk space here.

So far we have had no real issues but we are now in our tenth year and we probably need to reevaluate disk space issues.

UPDATE: Image Sharing Alternatives

After you've played with that for a while I'd like to post a version of that over on Facebook and make the revised version available in a reasonably high resolution, perhaps accompanied by colorized versions that reconstruct the idea that the ancient statues were painted.

That gives a 100% improved result that is much more consistent with the other representations.

Happy birthday to all with birthdays today but especially to Pacatus with thanks for all his contributions to the forum!

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Episode 277 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. Today's episode is entitled: "Platonism Says This World Is Darkness and the Next World is Light - Epicurus Disagrees!"

If you only have 10 minutes to spare, be sure to listen to the closing by Joshua and Kalosyni starting at about 47:12.

Thank you Titus! You were definitely on the list to receive a personal invitation, along with others who immediately come to mind such as Eoghan Gardiner and Julia and no doubt many others whose locations have dropped out of my mind.

Quote from kochiekoch

It demonstrates that pleasure is a regulatory mechanism for the health of the person, even if it's gone a little awry in modern times.

Yes, I'd say it demonstrates that pleasure is a regulatory mechanism for the health of the person that is subject to distortion both by our own error and at the initiative of others. And both problems have have reached new levels in modern times.

Quote from vlasalv

Can we say then that "one cannot understand Nietzsche without understanding Epicurus"?

Well I wouldn't go that far. No doubt understanding how subtle Epicurus can be would help understanding Nietzsche to some degree, but Nietzsche sure didn't approach the idea of "clarity" the way Epicurus did.

So I'm not sure that it's a good idea to look at Epicurus as a prerequisite to Nietzsche. At first thought I tend to I think the main issue is the common devotion to "this world" and to the intensity of warfare against "otherworlders." Nietzsche's "AntiChrist" to me is a good example of that, and of course that's one of Nietzsche's most clear commendations of Lucretius.

Great! We'll be setting up a private conversation with the Zoom link and we'll be sure you get included.

I sure will and let me try again to fix those permissions.