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Posts by Cassius

New Graphics: Are You On Team Epicurus? | Comparison Chart: Epicurus vs. Other Philosophies | Chart Of Key Epicurean Quotations 

  • Would Epicurus Agree With Cicero In Regard To Honesty in Business Practices? ("It is never expedient to do wrong, because wrong is always immoral; and it is always expedient to be good, because goodness is always moral")

    • Cassius
    • April 16, 2018 at 9:58 AM

    Here is a passage from Cicero's "On Duties" that I have always found fascinating, and I think it is interesting to consider whether Epicurus would agree with this analysis, which concludes: "To conclude, then, it is never expedient to do wrong, because wrong is always immoral; and it is always expedient to be good, because goodness is always moral." I suspect the analysis is open to many concerns from an Epicurean perspective, but I wonder if the same result in the specific examples given might be reached even under Epicurean analysis:

    Cicero's On Duties -

    "Let it be set down as an established principle, then, that what is morally wrong can never be expedient — not even when one secures by means of it that which one thinks expedient; for the mere act of thinking a course expedient, when it is morally {50} wrong, is demoralizing. But, as I said above, cases often arise in which expediency may seem to clash with moral rectitude; and so we should examine carefully and see whether their conflict is inevitable or whether they may be reconciled. The following are problems of this sort: suppose, for example, a time of dearth and famine at Rhodes, with provisions at fabulous prices; and suppose that an honest man has imported a large cargo of grain from Alexandria and that to his certain knowledge also several other importers have set sail from Alexandria, and that on the voyage he has sighted their vessels laden with grain and bound for Rhodes; is he to report the fact to the Rhodians or is he to keep his own counsel and sell his own stock at the highest market price? I am assuming the case of a virtuous, upright man, and I am raising the question how a man would think and reason who would not conceal the facts from the Rhodians if he thought that it was immoral to do so, but who might be in doubt whether such silence would really be immoral.

    {51} In deciding cases of this kind Diogenes of Babylonia, a great and highly esteemed Stoic, consistently holds one view; his pupil Antipater, a most profound scholar, holds another. According to Antipater all the facts should be disclosed, that the buyer may not be uninformed of any detail that the seller knows; according to Diogenes the seller should declare any defects in his wares, in so far as such a course is prescribed by the common law of the land; but for the rest, since he has goods to sell, he may try to sell them to the best possible advantage, provided he is guilty of no misrepresentation.

    "I have imported my stock," Diogenes's merchant will say; "I have offered it for sale; I sell at a price no higher than my competitors — perhaps even lower, when the market is overstocked. Who is wronged?"

    ??{52}"What say you?" comes Antipater's argument on the other side; "it is your duty to consider the interests of your fellow-men and to serve society; you were brought into the world under these conditions and have these inborn principles which you are in duty bound to obey and follow, that your interest shall be the interest of the community and conversely that the interest of the community shall be your interest as well; will you, in view of all these facts, conceal from your fellow-men what relief in plenteous supplies is close at hand for them?"

    "It is one thing to conceal," Diogenes will perhaps reply; not to reveal is quite a different thing. At this present moment I am not concealing from you, even if I am not revealing to you, the nature of gods or the highest good; and to know these secrets would be of more advantage to you than to know that the price of wheat was down. But I am under no obligation to tell you everything that it may be to your interest to be told."

    {53} "Yea," Antipater will say, "but you are, as you must admit, if you will only bethink you of the bonds of fellowship forged by Nature and existing between man and man."

    "I do not forget them," the other will reply: but do you mean to say that those bonds of fellowship are such that there is no such thing as private property? If that is the case, we should not sell anything at all, but freely give everything away."

    XIII.

    In this whole discussion, you see, no one says, "However wrong morally this or that may be, still, since it is expedient, I will do it"; but the one side asserts that a given act is expedient, without being morally wrong, while the other insists that the act should not be done, because it is morally wrong. {54} Suppose again that an honest man is offering a house for sale on account of certain undesirable features of which he himself is aware but which nobody else knows; suppose it is unsanitary, but has the reputation of being healthful; suppose it is not generally known that vermin are to be found in all the bedrooms; suppose, finally, that it is built of unsound timber and likely to collapse, but that no one knows about it except the owner; if the vendor does not tell the purchaser these facts but sells him the house for far more than he could reasonably have expected to get for it, I ask whether his transaction is unjust or dishonourable.

    {55} "Yes," says Antipater, "it is; for to allow a purchaser to be hasty in closing a deal and through mistak ?? worse than refusing to set a man on his way: It is deliberately leading a man astray."

    "Can you say," answers Diogenes, "that he compelled you to purchase, when he did not even advise it? He advertised for sale what he did not like; you bought what you did like. If people are not considered guilty of swindling when they place upon their placards FOR SALE: A FINE VILLA, WELL BUILT, even when it is neither good nor properly built, still less guilty are they who say nothing in praise of their house. For there the purchaser may exercise his own judgment, what fraud can there be on the part of the vendor? But if, again, not all that is expressly stated has to be made good, do you think a man is bound to make good what has not been said? What, pray, would be more stupid than for a vendor to recount all the faults in the article he is offering for sale? And what would be so absurd as for an auctioneer to cry, at the owner's bidding, 'Here is an unsanitary house for sale'?"

    {56} In this way, then, in certain doubtful cases moral rectitude is defended on the one side, while on the other side the case of expediency is so presented as to make it appear not only morally right to do what seems expedient, but even morally wrong not to do it. This is the contradiction that seems often to arise between the expedient and the morally right. But I must give my decision in these two cases; for I did not propound them merely to raise the questions, {57}but to offer a solution. I think, then, that it was the duty of that grain-dealer not to keep back the facts from the Rhodians, and of this vendor of the house to deal in the same way with his purchaser. The fact is that merely holding one's peace about a thing does not constitute concealment, but concealment consists in trying for your own profit to keep others from finding out something that you know, when it is for their interest to know it. And who fails to discern what manner of concealment that is and what sort of person would be guilty of it? At all events he would be no candid or sincere or straightforward or upright or honest man, but rather one who is shifty, sly, artful, shrewd, underhand, cunning, one grown old in fraud and subtlety. Is it not inexpedient to subject oneself to all these terms of reproach and many more besides?

    {58} XIV.

    If, then, they are to be blamed who suppress the truth, what are we to think of those who actually state what is false? Gaius Canius, a Roman knight, a man of considerable wit and literary culture, once went to Syracuse for a vacation, as he himself used to say, and not for business. He gave out that he had a mind to purchase a little country seat, where he could invite his friends and enjoy himself, uninterrupted by troublesome visitors. When this fact was spread abroad, one Pythius, a banker of Syracuse, informed him that he had such an estate; that it was not for sale, however, but Canius might make himself at home there, if he pleased; and at the same time he invited him to the estate to dinner next day. Canius accepted. Then Pythius, who, as might be expected of a moneylender, could command favours of all classes, called the fishermen together and asked them to do their fishing the next day out in front of his villa, and told them what he wished them to do. Canius came to dinner at fleet of boats before their eyes; each fisherman brought in in turn the catch that he had made; and the fishes were deposited at the feet of Pythius.

    {59} "Pray, Pythius," said Canius thereupon, "what does this mean? — all these fish? — all these boats?"

    "No wonder," answered Pythius; "this is where all the fish in Syracuse are; here is where the fresh water comes from; the fishermen cannot get along without this estate."

    Inflamed with desire for it, Canius insisted upon Pythius's selling it to him. At first he demurred. To make a long story short, Canius gained his point. The man was rich, and, in his desire to own the country seat, he paid for it all that Pythius asked; and he bought the entire equipment, too. Pythius entered the amount upon his ledger and completed the transfer. The next day Canius invited his friends; he came early himself. Not so much as a thole — pin was in sight. He asked his next-door neighbour whether it was a fishermen's holiday, for not a sign of them did he see.

    "Not so far as I know," said he; "but none are in the habit of fishing here. And so I could not make out what was the matter yesterday."

    {60} Canius was furious; but what could he do? For not yet had my colleague and friend, Gaius Aquilius, introduced the establshed form to apply to criminal fraud. When asked what he meant by "criminal fraud," as specified in these forms, he could reply: "Pretending one thing and practising another" — a very felicitous definition, as one might expect from an expert in making them. Pythius, therefore, and all others who do one thing while they pretend another are faithless, dishonest, and unprincipled scoundrels. No act of theirs can be expedient, when what they do is tainted with so many vices.

    {61} XV.

    But if Aquilius's definition is correct, pretence and concealment should be done away with in all departments of our daily life. Then an honest man will not be guilty of either pretence or concealment in order to buy or to sell to better advantage. Besides, your "criminal fraud" had previously been prohibited by the statutes: the penalty in the matter of trusteeships, for example, is fixed by the Twelve Tables; for the defrauding of minors, by the Praetorian law. The same prohibition is effective, without statutory enactment, in equity cases, in which it is added that the decision shall be "as good_faith requires."/a In all other cases in equity, moreover, the following phrases are most noteworthy: in a case calling for arbitration in the matter of a wife's dowry: what is "the fairer is the better"; in a suit for the restoration of a trust: "honest dealing, as between honest parties." Pray, then, can there be any element of fraud in what is adjusted for the "better and fairer"? Or can anything fraudulent or unprincipled be done, when "honest dealing between honest parties" is stipulated? ??{62} But "criminal fraud," as Aquilius says, consists in false pretence. We must, therefore, keep misrepresentation entirely out of business transactions: the seller will not engage a bogus bidder to run prices up nor the buyer one to bid low against himself to keep them down; and each, if they come to naming a price, will state once for all what he will give or take. Why, when Quintus Scaevola, the son of Publius Scaevola, asked that the price of a farm that he desired to purchase be definitely named and the vendor named it, he replied that he considered it worth more, and paid him 100,000 sesterces over and above what he asked. No one could say that this was not the act of an honest man; but people do say that it was not the act of a worldly-wise man, any more than if he had sold for a smaller amount than he could have commanded. Here, then, is that mischievous idea — the world accounting some men upright, others wise; and it is this fact that gives Ennius occasion to say:

    In vain is the wise man wise, who cannot benefit himself.

    And Ennius is quite right, if only he and I were agreed upon the meaning of "benefit."

    {63} Now I observe that Hecaton of Rhodes, a pupil of Panaetius, says in his books on "Moral Duty" dedicated to Quintus Tubero that "it is a wise man's duty to take care of his private interests, at the same time doing nothing contrary to the civil customs, laws, and institutions. But that depends on our purpose in seeking prosperity; for we do not aim to be rich for ourselves alone but for our children, relatives, friends, and, above all, for our country. For the private fortunes of individuals are the wealth of the state." Hecaton could not for a moment approve of Scaevola's act, which I cited a moment ago; for he openly avows that he will abstain from doing for his own profit only what the law expressly forbids. Such a man de ??{64}??{65} not enter, or, if he only is a good man who helps all he can, and harms no one, it will certainly be no easy matter for us to find the good man as thus defined. To conclude, then, it is never expedient to do wrong, because wrong is always immoral; and it is always expedient to be good, because goodness is always moral."

  • "A Dilemma For Epicureanism" (Comments On An Article Critical of the Epicurean view of death)

    • Cassius
    • April 15, 2018 at 6:52 PM

    Not knowing when I will be able to get back to this topic, I will state this further. Most of the criticisms I see to "Death is nothing to us" center on the supposed view of Epicurus that it does not matter how long we live. I consider that contention absurd, and do not believe that Epicurus or Lucretius made it. The essential point of this doctrine in Epicurean philosophy is that there is no afterlife in which to suffer punishment. Period - full stop. To contend that it is of no difference to the living whether die in lingering pain, or quickly, or whether we live for another hour or another hundred years is absurd on its face. There is nothing in the texts that compels the conclusion that Epicurus advised his students to accept such an opinion and such conclusions arise only from cramped and hostile interpretations of Epicurean philosophy..


    Such an argument is the best I can deduce from the opening abstract quoted below. Maybe indeed there are "modern Epicureans" who contend such a thing, but I certainly would not. Again, if anyone wants to wade through the jargon and post further on this article, please do.

    "Perhaps death’s badness is an illusion. Epicureans think so and argue that agents cannot be harmed by death when they're alive (because death hasn’t happened yet) nor when they're dead (because they do not exist by the time death comes). I argue that each version of Epicureanism faces a fatal dilemma: it is either committed to a demonstrably false view about the relationship between self-regarding reasons and well- being or it is involved in a merely verbal dispute with deprivationism. I first provide principled reason to think that any viable view about the badness of death must allow that agents have self-regarding reason to avoid (or seek) death if doing so would increase their total well-being. I then show that Epicurean views which do not preserve this link are subject to reductio arguments and so should be rejected. After that, I show that the Epicurean views which accommodate this desideratum are involved in a merely verbal dispute with deprivationism."

  • "A Dilemma For Epicureanism" (Comments On An Article Critical of the Epicurean view of death)

    • Cassius
    • April 15, 2018 at 6:45 PM

    The article at this link was posted to the facebook group, it is entitled "A Delimma For Epicureanism" by Travis Timmerman.

    Here is the response I wrote to the initial post. As per my comment on Facebook, if someone can get something worthwhile to discuss out of this, please post further in clear terms so we won't all waste our times. At this point I consider the article a waste, but I will be happy to be educated otherwise. Here is my response to the post:

    I trust Hiram that you do not think this is an *effective* refutation? I am going to edit this response as I read through the article.

    (1) My first comment after reading the first few pages is that this kind of dialectical hairsplitting and is why philosophy has a bad name, and why Epicurus said that it is of no use if it does not help us toward living more happily.

    (2) This is all I need to read: " I do not discuss ancient Epicureans, such as Lucretius or Epicurus, since historical interpretations of their work are contentious and because I do not need to take a stand on the correct interpretation of their positions for the purposes of my argument."

    I am not going to waste my time reading through dialectical word games splitting hairs with "modern Epicureans." If someone reads through this gibberish and can articulate that there are worthwhile points to be addressed, please do so without resort to "ED" "PL" "DD" and similar verbal gamesmanship, and we will all profit from the exercise. As written, I believe this article to be a waste of time for the members of our group.

    However, I can see this article has one redeeming benefit: it shows how worthless much of modern scholarship on something as important as the Epicurean view of death has become. If you are a new student of Epicurus go straight to DeWitt and get a grounding in what Epicurus is all about before you waste your time with something like this.

    Remember this from an Epicurean rant from Seneca:

    "And on this point, my excellent Lucilius, I should like to have those subtle dialecticians of yours advise me how I ought to help a friend, or how a fellowman, rather than tell me in how many ways the word “friend” is used, and how many meanings the word “man” possesses. Lo, Wisdom and Folly are taking opposite sides. Which shall I join? Which party would you have me follow? On that side, “man” is the equivalent of “friend”; on the other side, “friend” is not the equivalent of “man.” The one wants a friend for his own advantage; the other wants to make himself an advantage to his friend. What you have to offer me is nothing but distortion of words and splitting of syllables. It is clear that unless I can devise some very tricky premises and by false deductions tack on to them a fallacy which springs from the truth, I shall not be able to distinguish between what is desirable and what is to be avoided! I am ashamed! Old men as we are, dealing with a problem so serious, we make play of it! ‘Mouse’ is a syllable. Now a mouse eats its cheese; therefore, a syllable eats cheese.”

    Suppose now that I cannot solve this problem; see what peril hangs over my head as a result of such ignorance! What a scrape I shall be in! Without doubt I must beware, or some day I shall be catching syllables in a mousetrap, or, if I grow careless, a book may devour my cheese! Unless, perhaps, the following syllogism is shrewder still: “‘Mouse’ is a syllable. Now a syllable does not eat cheese. Therefore a mouse does not eat cheese.” What childish nonsense! Do we knit our brows over this sort of problem? Do we let our beards grow long for this reason? Is this the matter which we teach with sour and pale faces?

    Would you really know what philosophy offers to humanity? Philosophy offers counsel. Death calls away one man, and poverty chafes another; a third is worried either by his neighbor’s wealth or by his own. So-and-so is afraid of bad luck; another desires to get away from his own good fortune. Some are ill-treated by men, others by the gods. Why, then, do you frame for me such games as these? It is no occasion for jest; you are retained as counsel for unhappy men, sick and the needy, and those whose heads are under the poised axe. Whither are you straying? What are you doing? This friend, in whose company you are jesting, is in fear. Help him, and take the noose from about his neck. Men are stretching out imploring hands to you on all sides; lives ruined and in danger of ruin are begging for some assistance; men’s hopes, men’s resources, depend upon you. They ask that you deliver them from all their restlessness, that you reveal to them, scattered and wandering as they are, the clear light of truth. Tell them what nature has made necessary, and what superfluous; tell them how simple are the laws that she has laid down, how pleasant and unimpeded life is for those who follow these laws, but how bitter and perplexed it is for those who have put their trust in opinion rather than in nature."

  • Planning for Upcoming Voice Chats on DeWitt's Epicurus and His Philosophy

    • Cassius
    • April 15, 2018 at 11:50 AM

    Given what appears to be the declining importance of Facebook, I have put back up the Google Adwords advertisement that I experimented with earlier. I think even a brief introductory podcast made from one of our sessions would be helpful for getting the word out on a place for positive discussions of Epicurus. (I say "positive discussions" because I can frankly do without those who want to asset that"absence of pain" divorced from pleasure is the full meaning of life). More material in which we highlight the other aspects of Epicurean philosophy (aspects which combine to make that interpretation absurd) are probably the best way forward.

    I especially think that single page graphical memes which can be circulated on Twitter and similar places are probably a good place to start.

    Isn't it probably safe to say that the main goal of this forum is to bring us into contact with more people who have the same general approach to life that we have? If so, lots of discussion should always center around how we go about expressing the core principles in easy-to-grasp form.

  • Planning for Upcoming Voice Chats on DeWitt's Epicurus and His Philosophy

    • Cassius
    • April 15, 2018 at 11:41 AM

    Yes. Elli is out for now, and I feel like Ilkka is really stressed to make it, and Martin is traveling, so we should probably now focus on a time that works for the Western Hemisphere. Of course that would then primarily mean you, me, Eric, Julie, and Jason (if he is available). However it might not be a bad thing for us to work together more closely, and perhaps record one of these sessions to make into a podcast.

  • To What Extent Are The Ideas In The "We Hold These Truths To Be Self-Evident" Paragraph of the Declaration of Independence Consistent With Epicurean Philosophy?

    • Cassius
    • April 15, 2018 at 10:27 AM

    This is to pose a series of questions about one of the most famous passages of the American "Declaration of Independence." As discussion develops on one or more of these in particular we can split the discussion into separate threads, but to start here is a list of questions:

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. "

    1. What do we know about whether this paragraph was written entirely by Thomas Jefferson, or contains modifications from others?
    2. Would an Epicurean agree that what follows in the paragraph after the first phrase are "self-evident?" What does "self-evident" mean?
    3. Would an Epicurean agree that "all men are created equal." It is absolutely clear that all men are NOT created equal in every respect (health, sex, race, capabilities, preferences, etc.) It is also clear to an Epicurean that men are not "created" if that term implies a supernatural god. In what respect, if any, would an Epicurean say that "all men are created equal."
    4. What does it mean to say "endowed by their Creator?" Would an Epicurean use this phrasing? If so, what would an Epicurean mean by "their Creator?"
    5. What are "inalienable rights"? What is a "right"? How is a right "inalienable"?" It seems clear that this cannot be read superficially, as much of what we think of as "rights" are certainly taken from people all the time and thus are not "inalienable." In what way, if any, can this phrase be reconciled with Epicurean philosophy?
    6. What does the phrase "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" mean in Epicurean terms?
    7. "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." This passage is perhaps easiest to reconcile given the Principle Doctrines on "justice." How could we elaborate on this in Epicurean terms as to the meaning of "just powers" and "consent of the governed?"
    8. "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. " Again, this passage seems directly supported by the Principle Doctrines on justice. How would an Epicurean elaborate on the meaning of this passage?
  • Thomas Jefferson's Epicurean Writing And Development

    • Cassius
    • April 15, 2018 at 10:14 AM

    I'm revising a thread originally started in 2018 to serve as a focal point for finding Jefferson's Epicurean-related writing. At the moment, the best collection of Epicurean-related fragments that I've put together in the past is located here:

    Jefferson – NewEpicurean

    Unfortunately that's not particularly well formatted, so I will work on improving that and adding it here at the forum.

    Also, I'd like us to use this as a thread to assist in research and discussion of what we can reconstruct about Thomas Jefferson's interest in and development of Epicurean ideas. What can we reconstruct as a timetable as to when Jefferson first began to become familiar with Epicurean ideas, leading up to his 1819 letter to William Short where he wrote "I too am an Epicurean?" Jefferson died in 1826, so the 1819 letter was near the end of his life.

  • Planning for Upcoming Voice Chats on DeWitt's Epicurus and His Philosophy

    • Cassius
    • April 14, 2018 at 11:03 AM

    Looks like at this point we better plan for April 21st. I'll put up a notice at the top of the EF page, and also post to Facebook in a couple of days. The "announcement" at the top of the page has now been added, and I will add a Facebook notice next week. In the meantime let me say this: We can make a pragmatic judgment call on how many people we need to indicate that they will attend before we schedule, and if we need to do so we'll postpone til we have more. But if we do, it will be just that - a postponement - because while we may be delayed, we will persevere until we have the numbers to go forward!

  • Responses to Nussbaum's Criticism That Epicureanism Is Not A Real Philosophy; That Epicureanism Numbs Intellect And Critical Thinking

    • Cassius
    • April 12, 2018 at 6:37 AM

    More on Elena Nicoli, someone definitely worth following! https://radboud.academia.edu/ElenaNicoli

    Based on her public posts on her facebook page, she is VERY active in Epicurean scholarship - https://www.facebook.com/elena.nicoli2

    CV listing her articles: https://portal.ru.nl/people/cv/665145.pdf

  • Responses to Nussbaum's Criticism That Epicureanism Is Not A Real Philosophy; That Epicureanism Numbs Intellect And Critical Thinking

    • Cassius
    • April 12, 2018 at 6:18 AM

    This is a thread to discuss the presentation material posted by Jason Baker entitled "The Pleasure of Knowledge: Reassessing Nussbaum’s Interpretation of Epicurean Therapy" by Dr. Elena Nicoli, Radboud University, subtitled "A Contested Influence. Hellenistic Philosophy and Modern Thought from Nietzsche to Nussbaum." This is not the full lecture, but summarizes the main points with some excellent citations to Epicurean literature.

    The original post is here:

    File

    The Pleasure of Knowledge. Reassessing Nussbaum's Interpretation of Epicurean Therapy - Elena Nicoli

    A Contested Influence. Hellenistic Philosophy and Modern Thought from Nietzsche to Nussbaum
    jbaker
    April 11, 2018 at 8:30 PM
  • A Thread For Encouraging Thoughts

    • Cassius
    • April 11, 2018 at 7:10 AM

    All of us get discouraged at times, but we shouldn't be tempted to think that we need a fraudulent Jewish ghost or a mindless Christian ethical system. We are fighting for the people and the things that we love in life, and that is more than enough reason to fight. All the evidence our heart needs come from the pleasure we feel in that which we love, and the pain that we feel in losing it. And all the evidence our mind needs starts with the fundamental Epicurean observation we make with our own eyes: that nothing comes from nothing, and nothing goes to nothing.

  • Welcome Matthaios!

    • Cassius
    • April 9, 2018 at 6:27 PM

    Welcome Matthaios! When you get a chance please introduce yourself and let is know about your background in Epicurus.

  • The Process of Pulling Out Of Facebook

    • Cassius
    • April 9, 2018 at 2:43 PM

    Someone else I respect leaving facebook - Steve Wozniak -- https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/201…book/497392002/

  • The Process of Pulling Out Of Facebook

    • Cassius
    • April 9, 2018 at 1:16 PM

    I am looking into this and will report back! I too am concerned.

  • "Easter Sunday 2018" - Epicurean Philosophy Doesn't Start And End With "Pleasure"

    • Cassius
    • April 9, 2018 at 6:24 AM

    I begin to think that at various parts of my websites I am going to replace quotes that focus narrowly on pleasure with quotes that highlight the physics / canonics basis of Epicurean philosophy, not out of concern about pleasure but so not to play into the hands of those who argue that pleasure is the only subject Epicurus addressed. And then, at the same time and in parallel, pursue how "pleasure" covers much more ground than it appears.

  • Talking About Epicurus With Someone Who Is A Stoic (Or Of Some Other Anti-Epicurean Philosophy)

    • Cassius
    • April 8, 2018 at 8:49 PM

    This thread is to kick off discussion of how to approach discussing Epicurus with someone who is a Stoic, or a fan or student of some other anti-Epicurean philosophical school.

    It's possible that a table of comparisons like the following might be helpful: A Comparison Chart: Stoic vs. Epicurean Philosophy


    This is a kickoff thread -- please add your suggestions.

  • Talking About Epicurus With Someone Who Is Secular Humanist / Atheist

    • Cassius
    • April 8, 2018 at 8:47 PM

    This thread is to kick off discussion of how to approach discussing Epicurus with someone who is secular humanist / atheist.

    This would seem to be a category that almost doesn't have to be discussed, because secular humanists/atheists are often thought of as already Epicurean. In fact, however, it has been my experience that this is far from the truth. Secular humanists often adopt Judea-Christian ethics almost totally, simply dispensing with the idea of a supernatural god. That's a good start, but in Epicurean terms it doesn't go nearly far enough to firmly endorse pleasure as the guide of life, death as the end of consciousness, and - even more controversially - the Epicurean view of Justice as not built on abstract absolutes, bu on the individual happiness of the people concerned.

    For example, it is possible that in dealing with someone of this background that there are references in Nietzsche, or Dimitri Liantinis, which would point the way more directly to Epicurus.


    Anyway this is a kickoff thread -- please add your suggestions.

  • Talking About Epicurus With Someone Who Is Religious

    • Cassius
    • April 8, 2018 at 8:38 PM

    This thread is to kick off discussion of how to approach discussing Epicurus with someone who is religious.

    Although the case will probably differ with type of religious background, it would be helpful to have a list of major points to make early in the discussion process, plus a suggested reading list of articles and books.

    For example, it is possible that in dealing with a American of Christian background, reference to something from Thomas Jefferson, or even Thomas Paine's "Age of Reason" (which is not Epicurean) would provide a foothold for extending the argument further.

    Another approach might entail pointing the religious persons to collections of contradictions within the Bible, or lists of outrageous ethical statements in the Bible. Anyway this is a kickoff thread -- please add your suggestions.

  • The Process of Pulling Out Of Facebook

    • Cassius
    • April 8, 2018 at 6:00 PM

    I am going to do that eventually once I make a final evaluation of whether I can restrict its use to "advertising." Lot's of people here I probably never would have "met" except for Facebook's groups feature, but that period is coming to a close.

  • Planning for Upcoming Voice Chats on DeWitt's Epicurus and His Philosophy

    • Cassius
    • April 7, 2018 at 11:58 AM

    Shall we start planning for another Discordapp discussion of the next chapter of DeWitt's book? I think the last time we talked we discussed skipping over several of the "life of" chapters and going straight to the meatier chapters, probably the next one of which is Chapter 6 - Sensations, Anticipations and Reason. How about either the 14th or the 21st? Leave comments and we'll pick one.

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