Glad to have you Ataraxia and thank you for posting!
On the user name I probably should have put that on some kind of list to prevent it from being taken (hey I better do that for Epicurus!!!!) but since you claimed Ataraxia first then you get the gold star!
Do you mind saying how you came across the forum? Reddit/Facebook/Twitter or some other way? That would help in our outreach efforts.
Thank you again for posting and I look forward to getting to know you better.
Explanation from host provider:
Hello,
This morning we encountered a weird issue with LiteSpeed on server XXXXXXXX where it stopped and would not restart properly and continued to failed immediately after restart.
After much diagnosing, we have resolved the issue and LiteSpeed is now operating normally.
We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience caused.
If you have any additional issues or questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Is your issue not resolved? Simply reply to this ticket at any time to reopen it.
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We have this morning had a period of three our four hours where the site went offline for reasons that are currently unknown to me. However in this case the forum software was clearly not at fault, as the related sites of NewEpicurean.com and ElementalEpicureanism.com were also down. All indications is that this was purely a hosting provider issue. I see no indication that any data or postings on the site were lost or compromised.
(1) I will investigate to determine whether we need to consider switching hosting providers.
(2) In the future we will need a backup communication system, such as Telegram, which I will also investigate. I have a Twitter account but probably a dedicated channel on something like Telegram (which Michele uses, in Italian) would be a good idea. We an also currently send private messages via Facebook, but I don't want to encourage anyone not using Facebook to start. My perception is that Telegram is the up-an-coming service and has eclipsed Whatsapp. If anyone wants to nominate another alternative, please do. Of course there is always old fashioned email, and we could set up a dedicated email list also. Right now I would not be able to email everyone who is a member here if the site were down, so we would need another email-list source in order to make that work.
Great! good news!
Also, Godfrey, when you get a chance to test conversations again, please let us know. We need to track down this bug until it is squashed.
It appears to me that Elli's suggestion of "occupied" as the final word of this doctrine is more accurate than Bailey's "...without allowing himself leisure."
However the "leisure" reference is the translation we see everywhere.
This is a thread to discuss which is more accurate.
Bailey:
Epicurus Wiki:
http://wiki.epicurism.info/Vatican_Saying_14/
And not only thank you for reporting the error, but thanks for the comment on getting back to the skype conference. I was worried that we had lost you for some reason! 
Godfrey thank you for reporting this! I know that this past week I saw some glitches but I am not able to confirm this particular glitch. Could you try logging out, and then logging back in? In one situation that was weird for me that solved the issue.
I will post an announcement to see if others experience this.
Welcome @ekyrian !
When you get a chance please introduce yourself and tell us about your background and interest in Epicurus. It would be helpful also if you could include how you found the EpicureanFriends forum, as that would help with our publicity efforts in the future.
Yes Todd great to have you here. There are many many issues with Facebook and I hope here we have more focus and less distraction.
If we are going to get the most out of Epicurus and of life we have to take control of our own time and spend it more wisely than mindlessly scrolling through largely idle chatter. FB has its uses but it will never be the community we need.
And the community we need has to be built with our own efforts and initiatives. We now have enough numbers in the USA that it is realistic to talk about group projects and even meetings on the horizon. I hope we are soon off the ground with a regular podcast, as we already have a regular Skype conference call on Sunday mornings which is a prelude to that.
It will continue to be a challenge to develop new content in the face of the knowledge that much of what is already out there is essentially advice to be passive and reclusive, but that is what Epicurus and the other initial founders did -- they stood up and opposed what they thought was wrong.
Even if you only continue to lurk you are welcome, but if on any aspect you have a special interest please let us know and we will work to incorporate that talent.
For example I am sure you have seen Joshua's poems, Nates and Ellis graphics, JAWS's outline, Martin's research posts, and Hiram's work. (And although it wasn't focused on this forum, what about Michele's festival?)
There is a lot to be done and its in the doing that we get the most benefit. This is a good place for us to collaborate free of any agenda but Epicurus.
So welcome aboard!
Another commentator says: "Pleasure is a joy of the mind. I love that definition."
Cassius replies:
We should remember all the usual cautions as to translations and shades of meaning, but "joy" is a word which clearly describes the presence of an intense form of pleasure. "Joy" is not a word that can be easily squared by those who allege that Epicurus was limiting his ambition to "absence of pain."
Yes there is a way to square the two terminologies, but not by the modern adoption of stoicized suppression of ordinary views of mental and physical pleasures. Cicero knew that that such an argument would never fly, because he knew well that those who understood Epicurus understood "pleasure" in the normal sense of the word, including taste, music, smooth motion, and the other "pleasures by any of the senses in the whole man."
That last phrase - "pleasures by any of the senses in the whole man" is the really explosive definition in this passage that anti-Epicureans don't like.
Elayne says:
"One thing hasn't changed... that humans produce cultures where it's "shameful" to pursue pleasure! I have been wondering if that is part of the reason for the persistence of supernatural religions. I see people use imaginary beings as an excuse, which their fellow believers don't argue with. "The holy spirit told me to do it" comes in as handy as "the devil made me do it"-- an excuse for a day off from work (sabbaths), for enjoying sex (in Judaism), etc. My grandfather used to tell people his doctor told him he couldn't eat whatever food he didn't like.
Telling the unvarnished truth, that we are making decisions for pleasure, instead of making up an excuse, is a brave action. The more of us who tell the truth to our friends, the more they may feel courage to tell the truth as well, and this silly embarrassment over pleasure could be ended."
Old Tullius was no friend of Epicurus, but in attacking him Cicero preserved important information which allows us to see the true nature of what
Epicurus meant by "pleasure" - and it wasn't just "absence of pain":
That would be great too, and possibly more effective than other ways of spreading the message.
As doe me I never read any of the books but was very impressed by the movies. (Only saw the first three)
Excellent Joshua! Great content, smooth wording, never sacrificing clarity for the sake of elegance but always elegant too!
A post by Elayne... regarding this link: https://psywb.springeropen.com/articles/10.11…yHZIg7Jm-rjNez4
One of the ways we interact with reality is through the evidence of our senses (and their instrumental extensions). I thought you might be interested in seeing some evidence regarding the relationship of freedom to happiness (pleasure).
Rather than getting caught up in politics or national comparisons, I think it's worth looking at some key points in the write-up. I was very pleased to see the researchers define happiness in terms of people liking their lives-- to me, that means they are understanding that happiness is made of pleasure, because "liking" is impossible to understand without the feeling of pleasure.
Notice that not just freedom but awareness of freedom was important for happiness.
I love that they ended their paper by saying we need to have "guts" to live freely and happily!
I think this relates to our philosophy in three key ways. First, freedom from absolute "necessity"-- from hard determinism-- is critical to the coherence of Epicurean Philosophy. Without a probabilistic future, aka the swerve, the whole philosophy falls apart. Our knowledge of that core freedom inherent in matter itself, without any supernatural intervention, is important to our happiness.
Second, what the researchers call psychological freedom seems to correspond to our sense of agency-- our ability to choose and avoid-- and it affects whether or not we have a pleasurable life. Epicureans are not fatalists.
Third, having freedom from outside interference by other humans was also important for happiness in this study. I would say this is likely similar to other conditions Epicurus found useful for pleasure, in that there can be individual variations-- it's not going to be an absolute. Epicurus could not imagine a happy life without friendship-- for some of us, freedom to live as we choose is as inseparable from pleasure as friendship, and the specific types of freedom we want will vary. I personally have a high need for freedom-- when I am asking myself what will be the outcome if I do an action or not, one of the factors I consider is how the action will affect my freedom, because I know loss of freedom tends to reduce my pleasure.
Pleasure is still the goal-- freedom can be a tool. I'm a hiker, and we have a saying "hike your own hike", HYOH. 😃
Welcome @Todd !
When you get a chance please introduce yourself and tell us about your background and interest in Epicurus. It would be helpful also if you could include how you found the EpicureanFriends forum, as that would help with our publicity efforts in the future.
Welcome Ataraxia ! When you get a chance please introduce yourself and tell us about your background and interest in Epicurus. It would be helpful also if you could include how you found the EpicureanFriends forum, as that would help with our publicity efforts in the future.
This last part gets back to the issue that since life is desirable, it is always desirable to live longer if it can be done net pleasantly. I think all deductions that would contradict that are on conflict with what Epicurus intended and derive from intrusions from ascetic viewpoints.
Yes I agree with Hiram there. The key problem is the word "universe" which I take to mean, in the older conventional sense - "Everything that exists."
In Epicurean theory it is not "Everything that exists" that will collapse upon itself, but only a localized solar system / star system / galaxy or whatever wider astronomical term floats your boat as long as that term reflects something less than the whole. This is part of the issue that "everything that comes together eventually splits apart" but that can't contradict the "nothing comes from nothing" first premise.
The universe as a whole would not collapse into nothing because it is eternal and time (never came from nothing) as well as boundless and there is no space "outside it" or "beyond it" from which it could collapse.
Now of course I know there are modern theories that might contradict this, but we're first concerned about understanding what Epicurus taught. I personally agree with the Epicurean model of the universe, but of course I can still acknowledge that others might want to dispute that. What's important is to stay precise and keep distinction between (1) what we think, what (2) Epicurus taught, and (3) what some segment of modern theoretical physicists might allege.
