Posts by Cassius

A: Many people would be terrified of choosing that. They would not choose it. Even those that calculate a net pleasure would likely still have moments of terror, fear, suffering

Cassius Amicus: And that is a great example, A, why there are no absolute rules and we each much calculate our own net pleasure personally.

Not everyone can or would choose to do that, but when there are only two feelings in life - pleasure or pain - then the experience of pleasure - any pleasure - takes the place of pain, and that is what life is about, not the "zero state" that some like to preach.

Martin (one of our regulars) gives us a great example of how an Epicurean "avoids pain" -- by choosing to fill his life with pleasure!

Very impressive Martin!

At this location: Agency / Free Will

1 Yes Martin I observe that too. Hopefully the programmers will update and fix that.

2. As to the sidebar, based on what I see from my tablet, I think what happens is that if the "show sidebar" button does not appear then the software automatically repositions the sidebar so that the same material shows up if you scroll to the very bottom of the page.

Good one I have never seen before! Thank you!

Thanks for that comment as I had never tried swiping from the right. Now I see what you mean.

On Android, at the very top of my page, but under the URL bar, I have a "show sidebar" command.

Godfrey's post raises a good point . I am entirely Linux / Android myself and I don't have any Apple devices. If anyone ever runs into a problem they think is Apple-related please let me know.

Hiram cannot even post this link without the determinists rushing to mock it. I personally choose not to make the free will argument the major focus of my time devoted to philosophy, but if the issues worries you, you could probably do a lot worse than to choose to follow Hiram's link and check out that article. And just ignore the people who say you were destined to do that from the dawn of the universe..... because (1) the universe had no dawn, and (2) you weren't.

For anyone really "into" this free will argument, I would appreciate any examples or links to positions on this issue that are particularly clear and succinct. As for me I will stay with this one:

"Who, then, is superior in your judgment to such a man? He holds a holy belief concerning the gods, and is altogether free from the fear of death. He has diligently considered the end fixed by nature, and understands how easily the limit of good things can be reached and attained, and how either the duration or the intensity of evils is but slight. Fate, which some introduce as sovereign over all things, he scorns, affirming rather that some things happen of necessity, others by chance, others through our own agency. For he sees that necessity destroys responsibility and that chance is inconstant; whereas our own actions are autonomous, and it is to them that praise and blame naturally attach. It were better, indeed, to accept the legends of the gods than to bow beneath that yoke of destiny which the natural philosophers have imposed. The one holds out some faint hope that we may escape if we honor the gods, while the necessity of the naturalists is deaf to all entreaties. Nor does he hold chance to be a god, as the world in general does, for in the acts of a god there is no disorder; nor to be a cause, though an uncertain one, for he believes that no good or evil is dispensed by chance to men so as to make life blessed, though it supplies the starting-point of great good and great evil. He believes that the misfortune of the wise is better than the prosperity of the fool. It is better, in short, that what is well judged in action should not owe its successful issue to the aid of chance."

Thanks for these replies. Does anyone have any issues with how the forum appears on a telephone? Once again the red dots at the top left and right are probably the best way to navigate rather than opening menus.

This forum software seems to be very strong in its "responsiveness" and therefore appearance on telephones and tablets, and that's one reason it justifies the cost rather than using public domain software.

In fact I gather a lot of people use ONLY their telephones nowadays, so they may not even realize that the "sidebar" exists.

Quote from JJElbert

It's clear that the market selects for Specialists.

This comment caught my eye. I totally agree with it -- the market selects for specialists

The issue then is whether we will find our greatest happiness as being part of that market, and as the world moves on (and I get older) I am increasingly sceptical that "the market" is the answer to everything.

I know in my past I was deeply influenced by libertarian arguments, and I still think that "freedom" is generally going to be desirable and lead to the greatest happiness. But now as a function of realizing that "virtue" and everything similar is a "tool" for happiness, and not intrinsically and always desirable itself, I see the limits of the "libertarian" argument.

Presuming that "the market" will always lead to the most desirable result has been, I think, a huge error in the thinking of many Americans in the last 100 years. In many cases the market can and well be the best way of deciding disputes and conflicts, but it's not always going to be the best way, and elevating "the dollar" to the ultimate decision point is going to lead to just as bad a result as if we elevated "simple living" to an end in itself -- and probably worse.

ALSO (I got carried away on the first point) I think it is important that one point that is decidedly in favor of being a generalist is that you do often have wider choices available to you, and if you become the world's best programmer of some arcane computer language that only the NSA uses and understands, then your options are going to be limited to working for the NSA, and your livelihood becomes so tied to them that you can no longer afford to disagree or do anything "outside the box" of your masters.

All this I guess is why Epicurus did spend significant time talking about the likely better outcome of not overreaching "economically." But at the same time:

VS63. There is also a limit in simple living, and he who fails to understand this falls into an error as great as that of the man who gives way to extravagance.

I completely agree Hiram -- very good points. Elayne pointed out that this writer's background is confirmed Stoicism, and I think we see very important parallels between Stoic foundations and his conclusions, as you say.

Yes, great comment -- that is exactly why I added the "New" links.

And the rest of your comment is why I raise the issue. I know that navigating the forums is unwieldy, so that is why there is a "recent posts from across all forums" table, as well as a "most commented posts" table, and also the "General Discussion Forum" table. Between those three I am thinking that would cover most of the ways that someone would want to try to navigate, so that is what is included on the "Dashboard" page.

On the other hand, the main landing "Home" page has boxes that feature highlights from the Gallery, Files, and Longer "Blog" articles too. I am thinking that new people will flip through that home page and see a sample of pretty much all of the content, but I doubt that most people will want to flip through all that every time they visit the forum.

But in my own experience I am doing exactly what you are doing - more than anything else I am using that "New" link to find everything that's recent.

Does everyone here find it convenient enough to bookmark the "Dashboard" or other page as the place where you come to check the forum? I would hate to think that lots of people are going to the "home" page first and having to scroll down past the large section of unchanging text every time they want to see new posts.

The competing considerations are: (1) we need some significant unchanging text on the home page so that new users will understand he purpose of the board from the first visit, which competes with (2) we want repeat visitors to have a page they can bookmark to bypass that text on return visits.

The page that is supposed to work best for repeat visitors to bookmark is the DASHBOARD. That page contains only the brief Announcements panel followed by a table of the latest threads and posts. That's the page I have bookmarked to visit every time I come back to the forum to check for new posts.

If anyone is finding that system to be unwieldy and has alternate suggestions, please let me know. No one has ever complained to me about the way this is set up, but I'd like to be sure that things are as efficient as possible.

E:

Mark Manson identifies as a Stoic, so it makes sense that his articles reflect that... but what an interesting question you ask, what Epicurus would say about mediocrity...

Seems like it would depend on the situation. If a pleasure couldn't be increased by time spent developing a skill level, then I wouldn't likely care about doing it.

There are some things I enjoy being really good at, but my skill doesn't depend on others not being good. It's funny that Manson assumes excellence has to be competitive, when it could just mean accurate. We could all have excellent grammar, for instance, and this wouldn't be a competition. All doctors could in theory make accurate diagnoses.

This afternoon, I did a zoom interview for a training program I want to enter, to learn to do a particular procedure in medicine. The interviewer asked me "how do you think you might stand out from other applicants?" And I laughed and said "I don't know, because I haven't seen their files... but actually I hope I don't stand out-- I hope there are a lot of applicants who are very qualified to learn this, in case someone in my family needs to have it done!" ? She liked that answer.

So when I learn this procedure, I will have the goal of doing it as well as possible, for the pleasure of working without stress, for the income from it, and of course, for not being sued due to incompetence...

Ok, I guess what I am getting at here is that there's a natural limit to skill, for most things. And in some cases I will want to reach that limit, if pleasure increases. In others, such as precise laundry folding, I don't care. I'm not going to iron my underwear, lol. That wouldn't give me pleasure.

Cassius:

I should have realized that his tone marked him as a stoic and now when I look at his home page it jumps out further.

I agree with you that being very good at something doesn't necessarily entail competitiveness, and probably that is a stoic artifact that he associates the two as being necessarily connected. We don't allow doctors in Appalachia to perform medicine at a standard of care lesser than New York City - the standard of care is national, as I understand it, but I don't think most of us would expect to receive the same standard of care in some isolatated subsaharan desert.

Realizing that everyone can't be "the best" on a scale is simply a fact that we shouldn't be afraid of, and the competitiveness angle is a trap too, but it seems to me that there's something about the "tone" or the way he views the subject that goes beyond accepting reality and creeps into a very stoic-like suppression of the emotion of being good at something that most anyone can experience in at least some areas of life. More "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" stoic over-rationalizing.

Pretty much what you would expect from someone who would write "The Subtle Art of Not Giving A F*ck"

I had a friend forward me this article today and ask my opinion. The title is "in defense of being average." There are parts I agree with and parts I don't, and throughout the article I smell a strong odor of Stoicism. But the article does try to strike a balance by saying "mediocrity, as a goal, sucks. But mediocrity, as a result, is OK."

Probably an article like this helps us drill down if we consider "What would Epicurus say about "mediocrity?"
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/i…e=pocket-newtab

Brad do you have pets (cats, dogs or whatever)? I can only speak for myself but I know when I was a child and as I got older that the experience of having pets die on me became major events in my reconciling myself to death.

1 - My main LARP is my avatar -- that is from the movie "The Last Legion" One day I am going to have to buy a Roman helmet like that! My real life is excruciatingly boring in comparison. Anyone like to read some insurance policies with me? But it pays the bills and allows me the time to pursue Epicurean philosophy.

2 - YES I have been to the Parthenon in Nashville and it is great! I highly recommend it. I've actually been twice, once about 20+ years ago, and once about three years ago. It is impressive from the outside, and even more impressive inside. That statue of Athena(?) inside is really impressive! If the building is a full scale model of the real thing, the real thing must have been hugely impressive up on top of that hill in Athens.

On the second trip three years ago there was a lot of construction going on around it, which I presume is now complete. It no doubt looks best without those chain link fences around it.

How old were you when you were there, Joshua?

Oh no I wish I were -- I think that the term for me sometimes is LARPer if you know what that means. I live in the Southeast USA and I can only dream of getting to Italy or Greece some day in the future.

No problem! In fact I can easily move this entire thread to that location after a time. My current thought is that leaving threads in "General DIscussion" will make them a little more visible, but if people pay attention to how the forum software works they quickly see that new comments bubble to the top of the "Recent Activities" thread regardless of what forum they re in.