Posts by Cassius

Quote from wynnho

this subject is what I came to this site for...practical things, not just ideological.

Wynnho's comment is a good reminder that some number of people are going to come to this website hoping to go straight to a "practical tips" section rather than being sure that they understand the philosophy first.

We should probably make a subsection devoted just to people like this, combining some initial advice with explanation of why this approach can at times be counterproductive.

So as the thread continues it would be good to consider discussing both (1) the hazards of this approach (how do you know what will being you happiness if you dont know what happiness is?) and (2) examples of specific *preliminary* advice on practical steps that might be generally applicable.

If we don't orient people quickly to the hazards of for using on tools, we will find ourselves giving esthetic design advice for assistance in arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

But we *can* still give some tips that ought to be immediately useful to most everyone.

i think personally i am more of a calculating type who tries to optimize but sometimes calculates too long for his own good

Also Wynnho, feel fee to post your own thread specific to your quextions and thoughts if you dont see a topic on point.

is your focus on simplicity bringing you happiness, or just more simplicity?

Vaticsn Saying 63: Frugality too has a limit, and the man who disregards it is like him who errs through excess.

Wynnho a lot of the popular material on Epicurus has been misreported and one od our goals here is to get things straight by going back to the sources. Many of the commentators are not particularly friendly to Epicurus and that is why i suggest the Norman Dewitt book as the best way to get a good grounding.

And thanks to Charles for suggesting you drop by to set up an account!

Welcome Wynnho! Good to see that you are in Atlanta. Several of us are not too far away, and I hope at some point in the future we can set up some kind of live meeting in Atlanta since that is a central location. Of course if we do you will surely be on the invitation list - maybe even by then you'll be among those doing the inviting.

Anyway we have lots of different backgrounds here and i would say yours is pretty typical. Please make yourself at home for as little or as much time as you have to spare.

The best way you can help, and get the most out of being here, is to both respond to threads and also make new threads of your own. You can look for an appropriate subforum, or just put new posts in the "General Discussion" forum, and we'll eventually move them to a better location.

And be sure to let us know if we can do anything to make your stay here more enjoyable.

Quote from Godfrey

It sounds to me like he also laid the foundation for the destruction of the philosophy!

A M E N !!!!

Godfrey is this the "should" to which you refer?

I agree with you. Wilson tends to be very loose with her wording, when she should be referring to Nature, she drops easily into expressing her own view as if everyone would agree with her.

I also think this illustrates why the older terminology of "choosing and avoiding" makes more sense than calling things "evil" or "good." Those words today in English are loaded with implications about virtue or religion that Epicurus would not associate with them. The situation is simply that pleasure is desirable in itself, and pain is undesirable in itself, and there is no need to load those words with connotations that are foreign to the Epicurean perspective

Welcome wynnho ! When you get a chance, please tell us about yourself and your background in Epicurean philosophy. It would be particularly helpful if you could tell us how much background reading you have done in Epicurus, for which purpose we have prepared the following list of core reading.

Thanks for joining us and we look forward to talking with you.

----------------------- Core Reading ---------------------------------

1 The Biography of Epicurus By Diogenes Laertius (Chapter 10). This includes all Epicurus' letters and the Authorized Doctrines. Supplement with the Vatican list of Sayings.

2 "Epicurus And His Philosophy" - Norman DeWitt

3 "On The Nature of Things"- Lucretius

4 Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

5 Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

6 The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

7 "A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

8 Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus (3) Others?

9 Plato's Philebus

10 Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

11 "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially on katastematic and kinetic pleasure.

12 Chance and Natural Law in Epicurean Philosophy - AA Long -

--------------------- Other Books On Epicurus You Have Read --------------------

1.

2.

3.

In response to Godfrey's and Hiram's encouragement to me to post more, let me focus on this first:

Quote from Godfrey

You've created a remarkable amount of valuable content which could add a lot to the discussion

And so did Norman DeWitt, in writing what I think is by far the best book on Epicurus in 100 years. Did he break through in the long term into the academic circles, or is he ignored?

Quote from Hiram

You should pitch your own articles to publications like Partially Examined Life, etc.

And that's part of the same issue. The "mainstream" places of discussion aren't just unaware of the DeWitt / Alternate argument -- they DISAGREE with it -- and if they have their way, they will also SUPPRESS it, which is why it can only arise *outside* and not *within* or even *with the encouragement of* the "mainstream" circles.

I don't think it is very helpful to categorize the issue as a "political" divide unless we also trace the same divide through the "politics" of the last 2000 years. But the big issue is that there is an elitist class (and I am talking about Platonic-style elitism) that has always wanted to control the conversation, and always will want to control the conversation, and they see Epicurus clearly as a threat to their power and their elitism. So my view has been and remains largely that we have to build our own base among the common people on the street who Cicero looked down on, rather than looking to the establishments of the elite.

Now having said that I am sure that there are some good people in Academia, and some in the mainstream platforms, who will be open to the alternative view. In some cases that is going to be because they are surprised that there IS an alternate view, since they don't know there is another view, as they have been so successful in shutting down DeWitt.

And I do want to do what I can to circulate my / our material in much wider circles. But I think Twitter and social media are likely to be more productive than to try to get sanction from the organs of the establishment.

Nevertheless I am up for any avenues that will accept our material!

Great comments Todd. Glad to see you are reading this too. You guys are ahead of me!

Well I just discovered, during the process of pasting this into the Welcome for "Pepicurus," that it is not easy to cut and paste this spreadsheet from one post to another. Apparently it is necessary to copy the "code" and insert the "code" into each new post. That may be beyond the ability or energy of many users, so I will have to look for another method -- probably just a simple list like this:

1 The Biography of Epicurus By Diogenes Laertius (Chapter 10). This includes all Epicurus' letters and the Authorized Doctrines. Supplement with the Vatican list of Sayings.

2 "Epicurus And His Philosophy" - Norman DeWitt

3 "On The Nature of Things"- Lucretius

4 Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

5 Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

6 The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

7 "A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

8 Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus (3) Others?

9 Plato's Philebus

10 Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

11 "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially on katastematic and kinetic pleasure.

12 Chance and Natural Law in Epicurean Philosophy - AA Long -

I now (in the past, I thought differently) think it is a major mistake to use the "all that really exists..." phrasing as Wilson does in this article. That is the method by which Religionists and Academics fool people into thinking that Epicurus is not worthwhile because their lives are only illusions -- "not really existing."

Sure the atoms and void are what have ETERNAL and UNCHANGING existence, but the bodies that are formed from atoms and void during our lifetimes are very real to us, and those bodies are every bit as "real" to us the atoms themselves. In fact, the bodies that we see and otherwise sense are in our own experience ALL that is really real to us!

"Epicurus, by contrast, was a materialist. All that really existed, he declared, were indestructible atoms – tiny mobile particles, invisible to the naked eye, with various shapes and sizes, but devoid of colour, odour, flavour and sound, and separated by void space."

Quote

"The value of philosophy is that it typically poses a challenge to conventional and socially powerful ideas."

No!!!! The value of philosophy is that it heals the sick and helps us lead happier lives!

She just cannot leave the politics alone!

Man!! she cannot resist the politics can she? Argh again!!!

Quote

"Fame and wealth are zero-sum. For some to be wealthy, powerful and famous, others must be poor, obedient and disregarded. "

Thank you Hiram!!!

Lots to comment on but sadly this immediately jumps out at me:

Rather than aiming specifically to maximise pleasure, the Epicureans concentrated on minimising pains, the pains that arise from failures of ‘choice and avoidance’. "

Argh!!!!!

Thanks for taking the time to list that Charles -- I have heard of that book but never seen a copy. if you do see sections of particular interest please do post.

Yes Charles it looks like this book may become a regular point of discussion for years to come, like Greenblatt's "The Swerve"

Let's continue with general comments in this thread, but I have also opened a thread devoted specially to :

Responding To Catherine Wilson's Chart Comparing Epicurus To The Stoics

I have also set up "Catherine Wilson Books - Careful" as a subforum of its own, so over time people can start their own threads, and we may want to end up devoting a thread to each chapter.

This thread will be devoted to preparing a chart of responses to the Summary Table which Catherine Wilson included in both "The Pleasure Principle" and "How To Be An Epicurean." This chart renames Wilson's column on Epicurus as "Epicureans According to the Catherine Wilson / Academic View" and adds a column for "Epicureans According To the Norman Dewitt / Alternate View" which is intended to represent at least generally the view of the admins of this Epicureanfriends website.

This chart is a work in progress, especially as to the notes which are included on each item for clarification. Please comment in this thread on your thoughts about all aspects of this chart, especially as to how you think that the "Alternate View" column can be improved, either in the summary form included in the table, or as to the Notes which explain each item in detail. As the discussion evolves I will update the chart and notes in this opening post. This discussion should be interesting - thanks for your help with this!

Notes:

Note 1: (A) One definition of “Ontology” is “Ontology is the philosophical study of being. More broadly, it studies concepts that directly relate to being, in particular becoming, existence, reality, as well as the basic categories of being and their relations. Traditionally listed as a part of the major branch of philosophy known as metaphysics, ontology often deals with questions concerning what entities exist or may be said to exist and how such entities may be grouped, related within a hierarchy, and subdivided according to similarities and differences.” (B) It is important here to not leave the impression that because the universe is ultimately made up of atoms and void, which cannot be sensed directly, that the universe is unknowable. Unknowability is the implication and the direction to which most academic philosophers / skeptics seek to take us, and Epicurus rejected that.

Note 2: What is meant by “Causality?”

Note 3: Catherine Wilson calls this category “Purpose of Ethics” but it might be more clear to refer to it as “the goal of life” or “the highest good”

Note 4: What is meant by “Source of Moral Authority?” To the extent this refers to some supernatural standard, or universal ideal standard, such things do not exist in the Epicurean worldview.

Note 5: What is meant by “Orientation”? Here we presume what is meant is…….

Note 6:

Note 7:

Note 8:

Note 9:

Note 10:

Note 11: What is “happiness?” Here we are presuming that happiness is a mental attitude - a feeling - …..

Note 12: What is meant by “Education?” Here we are presuming that what is referred to is the proper goal of education, not the actual functioning of education to perpetuate the transmission of ideas that Epicureans would consider to be erroneous.

Note 13: What is meant by “Warfare?” Is Wilson suggesting that there is no distinction between offensive and defensive warfare?