Posts by Cassius

Both of those last comments by Elayne are more reasons why I think it would be very productive to spend more time on unpacking exactly what is meant by the term "pleasure." Just like "happiness" we throw the word around as if it is obvious but it has many subtleties that need to be explicitly understood.

Charles:

Thank you for posting this. I agree with you that this one is better than most. It is, alas, as you say, infected with the standard problems, but to a slightly lesser extent than others. I suppose this is to be expected based on this clip about the author of the video:

I also made these preliminary notes:

- The general error here is that his focus on this version of Natural and Necessary, plus this version of Static/Moving, makes Epicurus sound like an ascetic, which he was not.

4:30 -- says Epicurus was celibate!!? Absolutely no evidence of that !

The video says happy life = absence of anxiety and suffering -- which is the same old problem.

8:00 - References the Epicurus "riddle" -- Includes a section about god being omnipotent, but does not explain that is not how the Greeks viewed gods, so this would not have been an argument Epicurus would have made himself.

9:40 Comes right out and alleges that Epicurus taught "Rational philosophy of pleasure that is strikingly ascetic!" Yes, the Stoic view all right. Compounds the misrepresentation by saying this over a picture of the cherub figure (rather than Epicurus himself) from the "School of Athens" fresco.

9:56 Alleges that Epicurus lived on water bread and olives most of the time. how ridiculous! I suppose that's why Epicurus needed a household staffed amply with slaves, to be sure he got served his "bread and water" on time every day.

It is sad to say that even with these and other issues we could list, that you are right Charles -- in relative terms this is one of the "better" videos.

I could not recommend this to someone who doesn't have access to the full picture of Epicurus, but it's good to have this for comparison towards the time when someone with video skills puts together a better version.

Quote from Garden Dweller

This self-preservation assessment is equally important or superior to the question of whether the behavior will result in pleasure.

I wonder if this is sufficiently generalized to reflect that sometimes we will choose to die for a friend?

Ah Godfrey that reminds me that we miss you (and others) who have not been able to attend the Skype Book Reviews.

This past week JAWS raised the excellent point that DeWitt's list seems to be more of his personal list of how to fit Epicurean positions into a "virtue framework," rather than there really being a list of "Epicurean virtues" documentable in the texts.

Did they in fact have a list of "virtues" different from the standard list? Did they consider it useful to have their own list of characteristics that constituted a "special" list that they considered "virtues."

I am not sure that they did, but maybe / probably they just used the existing terminology, like they used the existing term for "gods."

So this is an area that DeWitt is helpful but we probably need to be careful to interpret HIM sympathetically, just like he interprets Epicurus favorably.

We have in Torquatus a list where he goes through the standard virtues, so we definitely have that as a point of reference, but whether he too was considering them as especially Epicurean, or just referring to the non-Epicurean list, is probably the same question as before.

So I am not sure if "Epicurean virtue" really conveys something that is a one-to-one equivalent with the term "virtue" as it is normally used. I wonder if "Epicurean virtue" means much more than "any tool which is practically successful in the attainment of pleasure." (And I continue here to not attach "and avoidance of pain" because are they not the same thing when looked at through Epicurean glasses?)

Keep us posted Charles. I will drop in as frequently as I can, especially if you try to schedule a special "event."

Right -- while there may be characters who focus on "Absence of pain" (I feel sure that they are, at least in a generic sense of shrinking from any effort or danger) are any of them held up to be worthy of emulation?

Now I suspect that there may well be characters who are both (clearly pursuing pleasure plus worthy of admiration) possibly including Petronius, but I mean to be specific: are any of them affirmatively and specifically pursuing "absence of pain" as their stated goal, rather than "pleasure" as we ordinarily understand the term. I am thinking that all of the characters pursuing pleasure are defining their goal in the normal way, never as "absence of pain" unless they are clearly slothful such as Oblomov apparently is.

Quote from Godfrey

So I would say self preservation isn't an Epicurean virtue,

Stated that way, Godfrey, what *would* you say is "an Epicurean virtue"?

I have a lot more to say about this video myself. I think there are critical points that come out about how the video gets Epicurus wrong when the video is compared to the actual movie. I haven't read into the background of the movie, but I strongly doubt that the writer/director of the movie had any intention of linking the main character to Epicurean thought.

One reason I have held off further commentary myself is that I wanted to see what reaction Elayne's article received. I consider the issue involved here - how to interpret Epicurus in a real-world way - is the number one issue that ought to be of concern to those of us who promote Epicurus as a wise teacher. The direction to which Elayne is pointing is an entirely different direction than is presented in the "Epicureanism in Office Space" video.

But to be clear, the "Epicureanism in Office Space" video is a very articulate and correct presentation of the view you will get on any college campus, and on 98% of website discussions of Epicurus, and in virtually all academic books on Epicurus with the exception of Norman DeWitt (there may be others in other languagues, but I can only comment on English).

We all have to make up our own minds as to which direction is correct, but that choice will make all the difference in how someone would apply Epicurus to his or her own life.

It appears that Elaine Blair is a good candidate for Cambridge-style Epicureanism - Also from the wikipedia article:

However, Elaine Blair argues in "The Short Happy Life of Ilya Ilyich Oblomov" that Oblomov is “not merely lazy.” She simply says, “our hero favors very short-term pleasures over long-term ones,” “he is self-conscious in a way that no farcical character or Rabelaisian grotesque would be,” and “to Oblomov, to be absorbed in any task is to lose something of oneself; a person can maintain his full dignity only in repose.”^[8]

: https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2010/…ilyich-oblomov/

This seems very parallel to our discussion of the "Office Space" movie: An Error-FIlled Video from the Neo-Epicureans: Office Space

Quote

Oblomov (Russian: Обломов; [ɐˈbɫoməf]) is the second novel by Russian writer Ivan Goncharov, first published in 1859. Ilya Ilyich Oblomov is the central character of the novel, portrayed as the ultimate incarnation of the superfluous man, a symbolic character in 19th-century Russian literature. Oblomov is a young, generous nobleman who seems incapable of making important decisions or undertaking any significant actions. Throughout the novel he rarely leaves his room or bed. In the first 50 pages, he manages only to move from his bed to a chair.^[1] The book was considered^{[by whom?]} a satire of Russian intelligentsia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblomov

This probably does not strictly qualify as an example of a character held up as a DESIRABLE example of putting "absence of pain" first, but that may be because it is largely inconceivable to find much that is desirable in putting absence of pain first!

On the other hand, this sounds like a VERY GOOD satire of MUCH "intelligentsia"!

Good catch -- how did you come across this?

(I might split this off from Charles' thread if it becomes too much of a distraction. But I do think it is a productive sidetrack to talk about this because that is essentially behind Charles' original post - thinking about the relationship of Epicurean positions to instances from Greco-Roman art.)

Plot Summary - Pretty much the natural result of putting "avoiding pain" at the front of one's life! -

The novel focuses on the life of the main character, Ilya Ilyich Oblomov. Oblomov is a member of the upper middle class and the son of a member of Russia's nineteenth century landed gentry. Oblomov's distinguishing characteristic is his slothful attitude towards life. Oblomov raises this trait to an art form, conducting his little daily business from his bed.

The first part of the book finds Oblomov in bed one morning. He receives a letter from the manager of his country estate, Oblomovka, explaining that the financial situation is deteriorating and that he must visit to make some major decisions. But Oblomov can barely leave his bedroom, much less journey a thousand miles into the country.

As he sleeps, a dream reveals Oblomov's upbringing in Oblomovka. He is never required to work or perform household duties, and his parents constantly pull him from school for vacations and trips or for trivial reasons. In contrast, his friend Andrey Stoltz, born to a German father and a Russian mother, is raised in a strict, disciplined environment, and he is dedicated and hard-working.

Stoltz visits at the end of Part 1, finally rousing Oblomov from sleep. As the story develops, Stoltz introduces Oblomov to a young woman, Olga, and the two fall in love. However, his apathy and fear of moving forward are too great, and she calls off their engagement when it is clear that he will keep delaying their wedding and avoiding putting his affairs in order.

Oblomov is swindled repeatedly by his "friends" Taranteyev and Ivan Matveyevich, his landlady's brother, and Stoltz has to undo the damage each time. The last time, Oblomov ends up living in penury because Taranteyev and Ivan Matveyevich are blackmailing him out of all of his income from the country estate, which lasts for over a year before Stoltz discovers the situation and reports Ivan Matveyevich to his supervisor. Meanwhile, Olga leaves Russia and visits Paris, where she bumps into Stoltz on the street. The two strike up a romance and end up marrying.

However, not even Oblomov could go through life without at least one moment of self-possession and purpose. When Taranteyev's behavior at last reaches insufferable lows, Oblomov confronts him, slaps him around a bit and finally kicks him out of the house. Sometime before his death he is visited by Stoltz, who had promised to his wife a last attempt at bringing Oblomov back to the world. During this visit Stoltz discovers that Oblomov has married his widowed landlady, Agafia Pshenitsina, and had a child - named Andrey, after Stoltz. Stoltz realizes that he can no longer hope to reform Oblomov, and leaves. Oblomov spends the rest of his life in a second Oblomovka, continuing to be taken care of by Agafia Pshenitsina as he used to be taken care of as a child. She can prepare the food he likes, meal, and makes sure that Oblomov does not have a single worrisome thought.

By then Oblomov had already accepted his fate, and during the conversation he mentions "Oblomovitis" as the real cause of his demise. Oblomov dies in his sleep, finally fulfilling his wish to sleep forever. Stoltz adopts his son upon his death.

Very good conversation starter. You've given a good "definition" of self preservation, but we probably need to specifically state what we mean by "a virtue" or "a virtue in Epicurean philosophy" too. Because we have the overarching principle that pleasure is the guide to everything, so nothing can be virtuous if it does not promote pleasure (which I think we can consider to include within "promoting pleasure" the subset of activities included in "avoiding pain").

So keeping in mind that the goal is always pleasure, we can't say that self-preservation is ALWAYS what the Epicurean will pursue (which is probably a way to consider a "virtue"?) because we know that Epicurus said that on occasion one will die for a friend, and there is the reference in Torquatus that we will sometime choose to leave the theatre when the play ceases to please us.

But there are the references that say "life is desirable" (Menoeceus) and also the statement that the man is of little account who has many reasons to end his life (I always forget the cite for that. Anyone?) And there is the PD to the effect that preservation of one's safety from others is a natural good.

So in GENERAL self-preservation would be the chosen course, but just like everything else other than "pleasure" itself, there are definitely going to be exceptions.

How's that for a start?

Can you imagine any admirable figure in a Greek or Roman mythological story staking his or her position on the affirmation: "All I want in life is absence of pain!" Maybe such a character did exist, but it would almost certainly have been considered to be a pitiful one, rather than serving as a role model for something that is desirable or to be emulated.

And yet we are supposed to believe that Epicurean Philosophy swept the Greco Roman world proclaiming just that as its goal for the ideal life!

If that is what the public who were attracted to Epicurus thought he was advocating, Epicurus would have been laughed out of town, not held up as a virtual savior and "god" himself.

The sad and irritating thing is that the joke is on those who are foolish enough to believe that nonsense. All this "confusion" is not an innocent mistake.

Edit: Elli This might be an argument worth re-using in the future. Are you aware if any figure in Greek or Roman mythology who is identified as pursuing "absence of pain" as their goal for existence? Did not the ancients embody their ideals in their mythology? Is the absence of enshrining such an ideal in a notable figure not evidence that they did not consider such a goal admirable, or even conceivable?

Note: This thread orginated in Charles' thread on Handel, but is being split off to avoid hijacking that topic: Epicurean-esque Music? A Quick Look at Act 1 of George Friedrich Handel's "Acis & Galatea"

Wow no wonder it sounded so good if you did all that! I am still only learning myself.

Quote from Kyle

> was thinking about making the script do this for you if you specify the chunks so you don't have to run the python script for each chunk.

that would be great but how would it know how to match them? Name the text and mp3 chunks similarly?

Charles do you know how to use the filtering / noise reduction options? I am only beginning to learn them. You voice comes over well during the Skype sessions.

Also, if anyone has any "audacity" / filtering or recording tips, please chime in. It is possible that if I had run this through a "compression" filter that there might not be quite so much "echo" effect -- actually I am not sure I know how to describe it -- I bet others have a word for it. Joshua in general the recording quality is excellent. What type of microphone were you using. Were you using a headset?

That is absolutely the key Godfrey. So would I and I think most anyone would. Also, most normal young people who are new to the philosophy are going to sense this and immediately reject anyone who advises this.

Yes I noticed that Kyle. I am also wondering if I can just break down the audio into separate files, and process it separately by "chunks" and give the video a chance to catch up that way.

That's one advantage of the computer-read voice -- it reads at constant speed.

Another thing I want to figure out is how to start the opening location on the first screen lower on the page at the beginning , as I am thinking that might help as well.

Joshua has done some great reading for this video!

Please thank Joshua for the time he invested in this, and let's also discuss something that might help as we make more of these in the future:

In this reading from the opening of Lucretius Book 1, Joshua uses three distinct voices. I'm calling then "normal," "audiobook," and "dramatic/Shakespearean."

We frequently find that some people like the dramatic voice for short periods, but find it tiring over time. Each version has advantages in terms of clarity and emphasis. As we work to produce more and longer videos, please let us know in which voice you think you would most enjoy listening to longer selections from Lucretius.

So please "vote" and also "comment" to let us know your thoughts:

Unfortunately some people are not going to like the initial advice, the foundations of which are things like giving up false ideas of life after death, giving up false religion, giving up false ideals of "virtue," giving up their affection for thinking of themselves as "rational above all," giving up toxic relationships that they think they have a duty to continue, and fully embracing that pleasure is the goal of life.

All of these will often be painful initially, even though they are the most productive of pleasure both over time and in "intensity."