Posts by Cassius

I think Elayne's article makes a lot of good points on this. I also think that there are a lot of intricate side questions, starting with something as obvious as pointing out that "happiness" is not a Greek word and not the therefore not the exact word that Epicurus used, so we have to be careful of two thousand years of potential changes in shades of meaning, plus translation issues, at the very beginning.

We've had extensive discussions about this in the past and we will probably be discussing these issues as long as we remain interested in philosophy. In the end we have to try to reduce the discussion to something workable, and we know that Epicurus held "pleasure" to be the guide of life, the alpha and omega, and all that, and he did not use the word "happiness" in that context.

In trying to sum up conclusions about the relationship to happiness and pleasure it seems to me that that observation has to ultimately be the test by which we sum up Epicurean philosophy in an understandable outline.

So we have to come to grips with why "pleasure" and not "happiness" occupies the central keystone role in Epicurean philosophy.

If I recall correctly, in addition to Ayn Rand, he's very much into Nietzsche as well (maybe more so)

Yes I would like to hear Elli too. My own impression is generally very favorable, but I do think he probably leans in some "traditional" directions as to absence of pain that I personally don't agree with. But I haven't read his pages in detail lately and my favorable impression is much the stronger.

Quote from Hiram

Indifference is not a qualifier to us.

Yes that's exactly the point I agree with.

Just to be clear, i am agreeing with you and what Metrodorus is saying, Charles. I am just saying that Metrodorus would not use the term "preferred indifferents" to express that weath is not INTRINSICALLY valuable. I think Metrodorus would say that of course wealth CAN have value, in order to purchase things for pleasure, but it may NOT have value if it used in a way that brings pain. That is how an Epicurean would evaluate any tool or any choice, contextually, rather than whether it fits in some artificial category of "preferred indifferent" which is Stoic terminology.

Are we together or still not yet? We may be talking about different things.

Excellent Charles, thank you!

Quote from Charles

Metrodorus views (natural) wealth as a preferred indifferent of some sort.

I suspect Metrodorus would view this statement, as I do, as fairly ridiculous. No action or tool is "intrinsically" a pleasure, unless it is some form of pleasure itself. So Metrodorus would never call ANYTHING a "preferred indifferent" which is a peculiarly Stoic manner of talking in fairly ridiculous terms -- not terminology an Epicurean would use -- only someone who likes talking in pretzels, like the Stoics love to do.

Quote from Charles

on the contrary, the greatest pleasure according to us is that which is experienced as a result of the complete removal of pain.

If you are focusing on THIS part, then that is the old question that we debate continuously and would presumably relate to the quantity argument -- given that absence of one is presence of the other.

But bottom line is that there is no contradiction.

Quote from Charles

I'm of the opinion that the school held both (methods of arriving at pleasure) in high regard.

Charles yes that it is absolutely clear (that pleasure is both mental and bodily). I am not sure if you are making a point here that disagrees with the point that "a life of happiness is a life of pleasure" because I see no difference.... (?)

Thanks Mike! Just as you were posting that comment I was pasting the same thing into an updated version. That is one of the most clear statements of the proposition that I am aware of.

Updated to incorporate your suggestion Charles - thank you.

Charles I am going to copy this into the FAQ thread on pleasure here: Glossary - What is the Epicurean Definition of "Pleasure?"

Note: Each entry will have its own thread so please make suggestions about the details here: FAQ Answers And Discussion

This is thread for discussion of this FAQ Question.

Yes excellent suggestion Mike.

That one is going to take more work. In the meantime I will point to Elayne 's article on this but coming up with a short summary would be desirable!

One thing that I think makes strong sense to include up front would be the issue of whether happiness is an abstraction vs pleasure being a feeling, or whether happiness is a particular type of pleasure (I do NOT think we can say that pleasure is a particular kind of happiness).

But I am not sure there is an authoritative text that distinguishes between the two (we can cite Diogenes of Oinoanda for the issue of "what is happiness? - life of pleasure...) but I think we need to be careful making claims on this without strong texts to point to.

Because in a glossary where we are defining happiness, the issue is not so much "the relationship between happiness and pleasure" as it is "What is happiness?"

Also, I doubt it will make sense to try to record these in full video for a while, but it would be very easy and helpful, before posting it to youtube, to make some "slides" to add as a video component to each episode. At the very least the text we are reading from ought to be visible as the video component, even if the podcast is mostly audio.

Yes, that is Lucretiustoday.com and I definitely want it to be a full podcast-type page with RSS feed and the ability for podcast apps on smartphones to subscribe to it.

I listen to podcasts on my telephone all the time so I definitely will make sure we have that feature.

Right now the wordpress site may have a subscribe function but I am not sure it is working to allow a podcast app to subscribe and get new episodes. I am going to have to decide whether to host the mp3 files on one of the dedicated podcast sites (like blogtalkradio.com or spreaker.com) or try to self-host. I think it probably makes sense to do a couple of episodes and then figure out the best way to host it.

I really want to be aggressive with technology and self-host, because I think we have enough talent in technology that we can do that. On related track I intend to take down "epicureanadio.com" from its current host and self-host that as well rather than paying a monthly fee. I feel sure right now it is essentially not being used, but if we can get an accumulation of podcasts to add into a rotation then it will make sense to gear that up again as a 24/7 stream.

I think in terms of the glossary that the basic point is to get people straight that we are not talking about supernatural gods that create universes, control things, etc., and then we can point them to the more detailed discussions that have all the details you are talking about.

I am thinking that the initial hurdle is getting people to hang around long enough to begin to understand Epicurus on his own terms, and so it's a delicate balance on how much to put in an initial FAQ and how much to leave out.

I'm thinking it makes sense for the FAQ to be manageably short, and then at some point in the future maybe put "I have read the FAQ" as a condition of posting here.

We already have lots and lots of discussion of this issue so I am thinking that accumulating the links here in these explanatory threads, with perhaps a short description of what is in each link, makes the most sense. But I agree that it does make sense too to incorporate some of the core texts in the FAQ.

Maybe the best theory of the FAQ would be something like: "Telling people enough about the basics to let them recognize that the term has a special meaning so they need to suspend judgment until they have had time to read more and absorb it."

Because we so frequently have misunderstandings due to basic Epicurean definitions of terms, such as "gods," "pleasure," and "knowledge." I am adding a subsection of the FAQ devoted to these words. We probably should also add "anticipations" as well. Are there other specific terms we should consider highlighting? <a href="https://www.epicureanfriends.com/wcf/index.php?faq/#category-208">https://www.epicureanfriends.com?faq/#category-208

Each entry will have its own thread so please make suggestions about the details here: FAQ Answers And Discussion

Thread for the discussion of the FAQ Answer here.