Posts by Cassius

Excellent post Joshua! So much of the discussion of Epicurus is in fact rewriting / neutering, even with someone like Gassendi. And I agree - my emotions about them are very mixed - in many cases, more negative in fact than those who do not even mention Epicurus.

Welcome @Wes ! When you get a chance, please tell us about yourself and your background in Epicurean philosophy.

It would be particularly helpful if you could tell us (1) how you found this forum, and (2) how much background reading you have done in Epicurus. As an aid in the latter, we have prepared the following list of core reading.

Thanks for joining us and we look forward to talking with you.

----------------------- Epicurean Works I Have Read ---------------------------------

1 The Biography of Epicurus By Diogenes Laertius (Chapter 10). This includes all Epicurus' letters and the Authorized Doctrines. Supplement with the Vatican list of Sayings.

2 "Epicurus And His Philosophy" - Norman DeWitt

3 "On The Nature of Things"- Lucretius

4 Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

5 Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

6 The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

7 "A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

8 Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus (3) Others?

9 Plato's Philebus

10 Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

11 "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially on katastematic and kinetic pleasure.

12 Chance and Natural Law in Epicurean Philosophy - AA Long -

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Comment by Elli:

"Δύναμη" [dyname] is the Greek word for the english words as force, vigor, power, and strength. Νature is dynamic and not static.

And as the ES 37 says : Nature is weak toward evil, not toward good: because it is saved by pleasures, but destroyed by pains.

Our natural condition is strengthened and enhanced by the enjoyment of pleasures past, present and expectation of the future ones.

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JJ WROTE:

The use of that lone Greek word αιρεσει is notable. Implying choice among schools, it's the very word that Christians would later use to make a crime of choice—"heresy".

Yes I thought the definition of that word was interesting too. Can you expand on your comment for the Christian heresy?

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…%3A1999.02.0009

Ad Familia 15.16

Scr. Romae ante mcd. m. Ian. a. 709 (45).

M. CICERO S. D. C. CASSIO

puto te iam suppudere, quem haec tertia iam epistula ante oppressit quam tu scidam aut litteram. sed non urgeo ; longiores enim exspectabo vel potius exigam. ego si semper haberem cui darem, vel ternas in hora darem ; is fit enim nescio qui ut quasi coram adesse videare cum scribo aliquid ad te, neque id κατ᾽ εἰδώλων φαντασίας, ut dicunt tui amici novi, qui putant etiam διανοητικὰς φαντασίας spectris Catianis excitari ; nam ne te fugiat, Catius Insuber, Ἐπικούρειος, qui nuper est mortuus, quae ille Gargettius et iam ante Democritus εἴδωλα, hic 'spectra' nominat. [2] his autem spectris etiam si oculi possent feriri, quod quae velis ipsa incurrunt, animus qui possit ego non video. doceas tu me oportebit, cum salvus veneris, in meane potestate sit spectrum tuum, ut, simul ac mihi conlibitum sit de te cogitare, illud occurrat ; neque solum de te, qui mihi haeres in medullis, sed si insulam Britanniam coepero cogitare, eius εἴδωλον mihi advolabit ad pectus? [3] sed haec posterius ; tempto enim te quo animo accipias. si enim stomachabere et moleste feres, plura dicemus postulabimusque, ex qua αἱρέσει 'VI HOMINIBVS ARMATIS' deiectus sis, in eam restituare. in hoc interdicto non solet addi 'IN HOC ANNO.' qua re si iam biennium aut triennium est cum virtuti nuntium remisisti delenitus inlecebris voluptatis, in integro res nobis erit. quamquam quicum loquor? Cum uno fortissimo viro qui, postea quam forum attigisti, nihil fecisti nisi plenissimum amplissimae dignitatis. in ista ipsa αἱρέσει metuo ne plus nervorum sit quam ego putarim, si modo eam tu probas. 'qui id tibi in mentem venit?' inquies. quia nihil habebam aliud quod scriberem ; de re p. enim nihil scribere possum ; nec enim quod sentio is libet scribere.

DXXX (F XV, 16)

TO C. CASSIUS LONGINUS (AT BRUNDISIUM)

ROME (JANUARY)

I think you must be a little ashamed at this being the third letter inflicted on you before I have a page or a syllable from you. But I will not press you: I shall expect, or rather exact, a longer letter. For my part, if I had a messenger always at hand, I should write even three an hour. For somehow it makes you seem almost present when I write anything to you, and that not "by way of phantoms of images," as your new friends express it, 1 who hold that "mental pictures" are caused by what Catius called "spectres"—for I must remind you that Catius Insuber the Epicurean, lately dead, calls "spectres" what the famous Gargettius, and before him Democritus, used to call "images." Well, even if my eyes were capable of being struck by these "spectres," because they spontaneously run in upon them at your will, I do not see how the mind can be struck. You will be obliged to explain it to me, when you return safe and sound, whether the "spectre" of you is at my command, so as to occur to me as soon as I have taken the fancy to think about you; and not only about you, who are in my heart's core, but supposing I begin thinking about the island of Britain—will its image fly at once into my mind? But of this later on. I am just sounding you now to see how you take it. For if you are angry and annoyed, I shall say more and demand that you be restored to the sect from which you have been ejected by "violence and armed force." 2 In an injunction of this sort the words "within this year" are not usually added. Therefore, even if it is now two or three years since you divorced Virtue, 3 seduced by the charms of Pleasure, 4 it will still be open for me to do so. And yet to whom am I speaking? It is to you, the most gallant of men, who ever since you entered public life have done nothing that was not imbued to the utmost with the highest principle. In that very sect of yours I have a misgiving that there must be more stuff than I thought, if only because you accept it. "How did that come into your head?" you will say. Because I had nothing else to say. About politics I can write nothing: for I don't choose to write down my real opinions.

αἵρεσις αἱρέω

I.a taking especially, esp. of a town, Hdt., etc.; ἡ βασιλῆος αἵρ. the taking by the king, Hdt.

2.means for taking a place, Thuc.

II.（αἱρέομαι) a taking for oneself, a choosing, choice, νέμειν, προτιθέναι, προβάλλειν to give or offer choice, Hdt., attic; αἵρ. γίγνεταί τινι a choice is allowed one, Thuc.; αἵρεσιν λαμβάνειν to have choice given, Dem.

2.choice or election of magistrates, Thuc., etc.

3.a choice, deliberate plan, purpose, Plat., etc.

4.a sect, school, etc.: esp. a religious sect, such as the Sadducees and Pharisees, NTest.

5.a heresy, Eccl.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l…or=ipsa#lexicon

nervus , i, m. root snar-; Old Germ. snara, a snare; Gr. νεῦρον; cf. parvus and παῦρος,

I.a sinew, tendon, nerve.

II. Trop.

A. Nerve, vigor, force, power, strength: “digna res est ubi tu nervos intendas tuos,” Ter. Eun. 2, 3, 20: “onus ... dignum, in quo omnes nervos aetatis industriaeque meae contenderem,” Cic. Verr. 1, 12, 35: “omnibus nervis mihi contendendum est, ut, etc.,” id. ib. 2, 3, 56, § “130: opibus ac nervis ad perniciem suam uti,” Caes. B. G. 1, 20; Cic. Phil. 5, 12, 32: “nervi belli pecunia,” id. ib. 5, 2, 5: “vectigalia nervos esse rei publicae,” id. Imp. Pomp. 7, 17: “legionum nervos incidere,” id. Phil. 12, 3, 8: “poëtae molliunt animos, nervos omnes virtutis elidunt,” id. Tusc. 2, 11, 27: “video, fore nervis opus sapientiāque tuā,” id. Fam. 3, 10, 1: “loci inhaerentes in nervis causarum,” intimately connected with them, id. de Or. 3, 27, 106: “nervi conjurationis,” the leaders, Liv. 7, 39, 6.—

B. In partic., of expression, force, energy: “horum oratio neque nervos, neque aculeos oratorios ac forenses habet,” Cic. Or. 19, 62; cf. id. de Or. 3, 21, 80: “nervi in dicendo,” id. ib. 2, 22, 91: “sectantem levia nervi Deficiunt,” Hor. A. P. 26.

Elli -- As quoted by Joshua above, DeWitt says that the letter to Menoeceus is composed in a different "style" of Greek writing than are the other two letters. Do you agree that the letter to Meneoceus seems more "elegant" or is written in a different style of grammar?

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DeWitt on page 12 holds up the letter to Menoeceus as (alone of the extant letters) "composed according to the rules of rhythmical prose". Epicurus in this one letter is writing artfully.

Elli do you agree that there is a difference in "style" between the Letter to Menoeceus and the letters to Herodotus and Pythocles?

Actually words like "arbitrary" or "capricious" might be better than "random." Not arbitrary, but undirected.

All this is a very good start to this thread.

Quote from Martin

I see no point in a generalization like that.

That's largely the point of this thread, to discuss things like that. My concern is that - at least in specific cultural contexts - the argument for supernatural religion is buttressed by covering words such as "random" with unacceptable connotations of "chance" that also seem improbable (and rightly so, because what we see is produced by the nature of the elements, not by supernatural outside forces which arbitrarily and capriciously inject new elements that are totally unpredictable). Regular / Normal non-physicist people need a frame of reference that rejects supernatural intervention without indicating that version of "chance."

Here is a definition of "random" from dictionary.com. As you indicate, Martin, the three standard definitions, especially the first one, is probably in whole or part acceptable (but .."pattern?")

. It is the "slang" definitions that are the problem for ordinary people, I think, and in developing this discussion I am thinking that this "slang" meaning is increasingly overtaking the standard definitions in normal discussion. And in these senses, the slang version of "random" contains ( I think ) much the same objectionable content as you and I (and apparently Epicurus too) agree is indicated by "chaotic."

MAIN LINK: The EpicureanFriends Reference Edition of Lucretius, containing the 1743 Daniel Browne, the Munro, and the Bailey Editions

Table of Topics For the "Lucretius Today" Podcast

DIRECT LINKS:

Note: The links in this table should be correct. Some of the links on page two of the current pdf version need to be updated. Most are correct, but the links to the Bailey and Munro notes sections for each book require updating.

What would you suggest in its place Martin? Especially keeping in mind that the context is not really specialized physics but general understandability for a layman.

12/2/19 Edit to make item five more encompassing and clear:

From:

5. Not "humanism,” “individualism”, “collectivism”, “egoism,” “altruism,” or “social progress,” but friendship which “is formed and maintained by means of community of life among those who have reached the fullness of pleasure.”

To:

5. Not "humanism," "transhumanism," "individualism," "collectivism," "egoism," "altruism," "social progress," "Marxism," "democracy," "tyranny," or any "one size fits all" political ideal of any kind, but social structure based on friendship which "is formed and maintained by means of a community of life among those who have reached the fullness of pleasure."

I have never seen any, Godfrey. I have never seen any information whatsoever about who Menoeceus was, or anything about its context. I am not aware that there is any information about it at all other than what is in Diogenes Laertius, which gives very little.

There is this comment, after the letter to Pythocles:

And then this, before and after the letter, which Bailey represents here by the line of dots so he can pull out the letter and highlight it separately from the biography:

As far as I know, that is the extent of our knowledge about the letter to Menoeceus.

Today I saw the phrase "not random, but undirected" and think it is probably a good high-level summary of the Epicurean position in physics, given that the properties of the elemental particles give rise to their motions, while at the same time the concept of "the swerve" is also operational, but that none of this is "random" in the sense of "chaotic" or "subject to fortune." The key is in the definitions of these words, but the issue is that Epicurus was concerned to explain the observed regularity of the universe while still preserving a mechanism for free will, and it helps to have ways to capture this attack on both religion and radical skepticism in a single phrase.

This subforum and thread are set up to discuss that. I have googled for the phrase without finding this precise formulation very often (if at all) but here is a clip from an article that is very close - discussing animal behavior. The book is "Animal Behavior" by Michael D. Breed and Janice Moore; this context of animals is no doubt not a perfect analogy, but there are other examples relating to "undirected graphs" and other aspects of mathematics which are probably better, but I don't have those at hand.

I also think this is probably closely related to the matters discussed in "Chance and Natural Law in Epicureanism" by AA Long.

For the time being, this is more a placeholder than an assertion of a conclusion...

So the Epicurean orientation toward pleasure-seeking stems from the foundation of the Epicurean orientation toward reality, not the other way around. Pleasure and pain are realities to us, and so feeling is a part of the Epicurean canon of truth, while dialectical logic is not.

Also: https://www.sparknotes.com/philosophy/phaedo/section9/

Here is a very informative response from a FB poster:

"Second sailing or second voyage" is an Ancient Greek sailing proverb; "when the wind fails, we use the oars." Plato uses the term in Phaedo 99d. He claims that the physicists were not able to satisfy him regarding the true causes of nature. He finds a clue in Anaxagoras' notion of mind (nous) and believes dialectic can take him the rest of the way. Hence, the move from the natural power of the wind to the artificial power of the oars. I think it is correct to characterize Epicureanism as rejecting the second voyage. Addressing Plato's concerns regarding the failure of the Physicist to explain adequately the causes of nature would surely have been one of Epicurus' key objectives.

The excerpt below is not directed at Nietzsche or Al-Razi, but it contains an independent insight that is worth taking out of that context. This paragraph points to what really makes Epicurus unique and important - not his ethics, but his insight into the nature of the universe. "Positing only material atoms and the void, the Epicureans attempt to account for all being, knowledge, and value without relying upon any “supernatural” explanatory entities." Without this foundation, the ethics lead nowhere:

Yes that is an excellent observation too -- something is different about this letter. I wonder if Elli has any insight into the stylistic issues involved? Or whether the name "Menoeceus" has any background meaning?

So we know from the other two major letters that Epicurus used the standard format of beginning his letters with an explanation of why he was writing, yet in this one he apparently just launches into a discourse with no context.

And we know (or think we know) that this one as written in a very different style.

The other letters give us at least a small amount of information about the recipient, in telling us why they were written. I wish we know anything at all about who "Menoeceus" was, other than that he was someone who apparently had had prior direct dealings with Epicurus.

Welcome @Uwe ! For those who don't know, Uwe is a name I recognize well from past Epicurean discussions, and he has been very helpful in several research matters. Very good to see you here! Uwe and Martin , you ought to say guten tag to your fellow countryman - I don't think you two know each other.

But here is the rest of the general welcome: When you get a chance, please tell us about yourself and your background in Epicurean philosophy.

It would be particularly helpful if you could tell us (1) how you found this forum, and (2) how much background reading you have done in Epicurus. As an aid in the latter, we have prepared the following list of core reading.

Thanks for joining us and we look forward to talking with you.

----------------------- Epicurean Works I Have Read ---------------------------------

1 The Biography of Epicurus By Diogenes Laertius (Chapter 10). This includes all Epicurus' letters and the Authorized Doctrines. Supplement with the Vatican list of Sayings.

2 "Epicurus And His Philosophy" - Norman DeWitt

3 "On The Nature of Things"- Lucretius

4 Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

5 Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

6 The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

7 "A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

8 Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus (3) Others?

9 Plato's Philebus

10 Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

11 "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially on katastematic and kinetic pleasure.

12 Chance and Natural Law in Epicurean Philosophy - AA Long -

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