Posts by Cassius

That is an interesting suggestion Michele!

I think it does have some potential, at least for certain uses.

However as to this:

Quote from michelepinto

it does not have a symbol with which it can be identified around the world.

.... I am not sure that the ancient Epicureans would agree --- it seems as if they did have something they used: the bust of Epicurus himself, which you are holding in your excellent avatar!

This is an interesting questions from many perspectives. It probably also relates to the use of the term "Epicurean" as the name of the philosophy rather than "hedonism" or even "atomism" or the like. Both words have uses, but neither word captures the whole philosophy like identifying it with the founder himself does.

And I think that relates too to the issue that Don refers to, such as the use of the Greek letter (such as Society of Epicurus does) representing "friendship". Anything that conveys only one aspect of the philosophy fails to capture the fullness of it, and may tend to falsely imply that one aspect of it is "the most important."

I know personally that was my immediate reaction to the letter indicating friendship, and I think that's also why I rarely refer to the philosophy as atomism or hedonism. Both words have their uses, just as this suggested symbol might.

I suspect even the christians ought to be concerned about the cross for the very same reasons. (Which is one reason I gather than the Mormons do not use the cross very often, even though they consider themselves to be christians.)

If the question were: What unicode symbol on a keyboard would work best, I doubt anyone could come up with any better.... though it would be interesting to consider the options and think about that.

1 - I haven't had a chance to review the AA material in detail, but I suspect there is some useful material there. On the other hand, I suspect it also tends a little more toward "how to control your mind and live with your weaknesses" rather than "here is a proper understanding of the world which, when you see it, you will be able to use to overcome your problems."

2 - As for the comments on Elli and hearing about Greece, I share them completely -- I just haven't been successful yet in uncovering the details.

Welcome to Episode Sixty-Three of Lucretius Today.

I am your host Cassius, and together with my panelists from the EpicureanFriends.com forum, we'll walk you through the six books of Lucretius' poem, and discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. We encourage you to study Epicurus for yourself, and we suggest the best place to start is the book, "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Canadian professor Norman DeWitt.

For anyone who is not familiar with our podcast, please check back to Episode One for a discussion of our goals and our ground rules. If you have any question about that, please be sure to contact us at EpicureanFriends.com for more information.

In this Episode 63 we will complete Book Four and our discussion of perils of romantic love.

Now let's join Charles reading today's text:

Latin Lines -1209 - 1287 (end) of Book Four.

Munro Notes

1209-1232: according as the seed of the man or woman prevails at conception, the child is more like to the one or to the other; and this is so whether the child be male or female.

1233-1277: it is not the gods who grant or withhold offspring: conception depends on the due assortment of man and wife.

1278-1287: often by her own virtues, from no divine interposition, a woman without personal attractions will endear herself to her husband.

Browne 1743

If, in the mixing of the seed, the female draws in and snatches with sudden force the male seed, the child, the female seed is prevailing, is like the mother, as he is like the father if his prevails. But those who, you observe, express jointly the resemblance, and mingle the features of both parents, are formed equally from the juices of both; for then the mutual ardor of the combatants has justly tempered the conflicting seed, which, raised by the stings of Venus, is sent in due proportion through all the limbs. The success of the battle is equal, neither is victor nor vanquished. It happens sometimes that children are like their grandfathers, and resemble the persons of their remote ancestors, because the parents have frequently many seeds concealed and variously mingled in their bodies, which preserve the features of the family, and are delivered down from one to another. These Venus forms into different figures, as the qualities of the seeds require, and represents the complexion, the voice and hair of the progenitors; for these no less arise from proper seeds than the face, the body, or any parts of it. And a female child proceeds partly from the father's seed, and a male from the mother's, for the issue always consists of the seed of both; but the greater likeness it bears to the one than to the other, it partakes of more than a just proportion of the seed of that sex, which you easily apprehend, whether the child be male or female.

Nor do divinities above ever destroy the prolific virtue of the seed, or prevent a man's being called father by a number of sweet children, or curse him all his life with unfruitful love, as some vainly think, and therefore with much concern stain the altars with the blood of many victims, and make them smoke with clouds of incense, to implore a blessing upon the showery seed and promote conception; but to no purpose they tire out the gods and fatigue the oracles, for they are frequently unfruitful because the seed is too thick or too thin. The thin seed will not stay in the parts where it was injected, but soon dissolves and flows back; and the thick has no effect, because it is sent out heavy and condensed, or it does not carry home to the mark, or it cannot rightly penetrate the passages, or if it does, it is not at all disposed to mix kindly with the female juice. For the harmony of love between the sexes is widely different; men are more prolific with some women, and women conceive more readily, and swell with their burden after the embrace of some men than with others. Many women have been barren in a first and second marriage, and been fruitful at last, have borne lusty boys and blessed the family with a sweet offspring; and men, after marrying several times without issue, have at length found out a wife of a constitution agreeable to their own, and supported their old age with many children.

Of so great concern it is that the seed of both should kindly mix and mutually glow with genial heat, that the thick and the thin should incorporate together, and that the woman, in the art of love, should engage with a man whose nature be suitable to her own. And the food we live upon is of no small importance, for the seed increases through the limbs by some meats, and it becomes watery and feeble by others. [1743 TRANSLATOR'S NOTE: "I can translate no further. Dryden, in his Miscelllanies, goes on in full vigor, and keeps up to the original."] If like importance is the posture, too, in which the genial feat of love we do. For, as the females of the four-foot kind receive the leapings of their males behind, so the good wives, with loins uplifted high, and leaning on their hands, the fruitful stroke may try. For in that posture they will best conceive, not when supinely laid they frisk and heave, for active motions only break the flow, and more of strumpet than of wives they show; when answering stroke with stroke, the mingled liquors flow. Endearment eager, and too brisk a bound, throw off the plow-share from the furrowed ground. But common harlots in conjunction heave, because tis less their business to conceive than to delight and to provoke the deed, a trick which honest wives but little need.

Nor is it from the gods, or the darts of Venus, that a woman of ordinary beauty is sometimes beloved. She often secures the affection by her discreet conduct, by the sweetness of her deportment, and an exactness in the decency of her person, so that a man by use, may spend his life happily with her. To sum it all up: it is custom that reconciles the delights of love, for beat upon anything with constant blows, though ever so lightly, it is overcome at last, and crumbles to pieces. Have not you observed how drops of water falling upon a hard stone, by length of time, wear it away?

Munro 1886

And when haply in mixing her seed with the man’s, the woman by sudden force has overpowered and seized for herself his force, then children are formed from the mothers’ seed like to the mothers, as from the fathers’ seed like to the fathers. But those whom you see with a share of both forms, blending equally the features of the parents, grow from the union of the father’s body and the mother’s blood, when the mutual ardor of desire working in concert has brought and clashed together the seeds roused throughout the frame by the goads of Venus; and neither of the two has gotten the mastery nor has been mastered. Sometimes too the children may spring up like their grandfathers and often resemble the forms of their grandfathers’ fathers, because the parents often keep concealed in their bodies many first-beginnings mixed in many ways, which first proceeding from the original stock one father hands down to the next father; and then from these Venus produces forms after a manifold chance and repeats not only the features, but the voices and hair of their forefathers. And the female sex equally springs from the father’s seed and males go forth equally formed from the mother’s body; since these distinctions no more proceed from the fixed seed of one or other parent than our faces and bodies and limbs: the birth is always formed out of the two seeds; and whichever parent that which is produced more resembles of that parent it has more than an equal share; as you may equally observe, whether it is a male child or a female birth.

Nor do the divine powers debar anybody from the power of begetting, forbidding him ever to receive the name of father from sweet children and forcing him to pass his life in a barren wedlock; as men commonly fancy when in sorrow they drench the altars with much blood and pile the raised altars with offerings, to make their wives pregnant with abundant seed. In vain they weary the divinity of the gods and the sacred lots. They are barren sometimes from the too great thickness of the seed, sometimes from its undue fluidity and thinness: because the thin is unable to get a firm hold on the right spots, it at once passes away and is repelled and withdrawn abortively: since by others again a too thick seed is discharged in a state more solid than is suitable, it either does not fly forth with so prolonged a stroke or cannot equally pass into the proper spots or when it has passed in with difficulty mixes with the woman’s seed. For well-assorted matches are found to be of great importance; and some males impregnate some females more readily than others, and other females conceive and become pregnant more readily from other males. And many women have hitherto been barren during several marriages and have yet in the end found mates from whom they could conceive children and be enriched with a sweet offspring. And often even for those to whom hitherto wives however fruitful had been unable in their house to bear, has been found a compatible nature, enabling them to fortify their age with sons.

Of such great importance is it in order that seeds may agree and blend with seeds in a way to promote birth whether the thick comes into contact with the fluid and the fluid with the thick. And on this point it matters much on what diet life is supported; for by some foods seed is thickened in the limbs, and by others again is thinned and wasted. And in what modes the intercourse goes on, is likewise of very great moment; for women are commonly thought to conceive more readily after the manner of wild beasts and quadrupeds, because the seeds in this way can find the proper spots in consequence of the position of the body. Nor have wives the least use for effeminate motions: a woman hinders and stands in the way of her own conceiving, when thus she acts; for she drives the furrow out of the direct course and path of the share and turns away from the proper spots the stroke of the seed. And thus for their own ends harlots are wont to move, in order not to conceive and lie in child-bed frequently, and at the same time to render Venus more attractive to men. This our wives have surely no need of.

Sometimes too by no divine grace and arrows of Venus a sorry woman of inferior beauty comes to be loved; for the wife sometimes by her own acts and accommodating manners and by elegant neatness of person readily habituates you to pass your life with her. Moreover custom renders love attractive; for that which is struck by oft-repeated blows however lightly, yet after long course of time is overpowered and gives way. See you not too that drops of water falling on stones after long course of time scoop a hole through these stones?

Bailey 1921

And often when in the mingling of sex the woman by sudden force has mastered the man’s might and seized on it with her own, then children are borne like the mother, thanks to the mother’s seed, just as the father’s seed may make them like the father. But those whom you see with the form of both, mingling side by side the features of both parents, spring alike from the father’s body and the mother’s blood. It comes to pass too sometimes that they can be created like their grandparents, and often recall the form of their grandparents’ parents, for the reason that many first-beginnings in many ways are often mingled and concealed in the body of their parents, which, starting from the stock of the race, father hands on to father; therefrom Venus unfolds forms with varying chance, and recalls the look, the voice, the hair of ancestors; since indeed these things are none the more created from a seed determined than are our faces and bodies and limbs. Again the female sex may spring from the father’s seed, and males come forth formed from the mother’s body. For every offspring is fashioned of the two seeds, and whichever of the two that which is created more resembles, of that parent it has more than an equal share; as you can yourself discern, whether it be a male offspring or a female birth.

Nor do powers divine deny to any man a fruitful sowing of seed, that he may never be called father by sweet children, but must live out his years in barren wedlock; as men believe for the most part, and sorrowing sprinkle the altars with streams of blood and fire the high places with their gifts, that they may make their wives pregnant with bounteous seed. Yet all in vain they weary the majesty of the gods and their sacred lots. For some of them are barren through seed overthick, and again overliquid and thin in turn. The thin seed, because it cannot fix its fastenings, suddenly trickles away and retracing its path departs abortively. Further since for others seed too thick is emitted, either it does not shoot forward with such far-reaching blow, or else it cannot equally penetrate to vital spots, or having penetrated it mingles ill with the woman's seed. For the couplings in wedlock are seen to be very diverse. And many women have been barren in several wedlocks before, yet at length have found a mate from whom they might conceive children, and grow rich with sweet offspring. And often even for those, for whom wives fruitful ere now in the house had been unable to bear, a well-matched nature has been found, so that they might fortify their old age with children.

Of so great import is it that the one seed should be able to mingle with the other in a manner suited for generation, and that thick should unite with liquid and liquid with thick. And herein it is of import on what diet life is sustained; for on some food seeds swell within the limbs and on others they are thinned away and grow weak instead. And in what way even the enticing act of love is performed, that too is of great import; since for the most part it is thought that women conceive best after the fashion of beasts and in the manner of quadrupeds, because the seeds can thus take up their position when the breast is below and the loins are raised. Nor have wives any need at all for lascivious movements. For the woman prevents herself from conceiving and fights against it, if despite her joy she withdraws from the man's passion with her buttocks and receives the moist fluid with all her breast relaxed. For thus she drives the furrow of the plough from the true direction of the path, and turns aside the blow of seed from the vital parts. Such motions whores are wont to make for their own sake, that they be not filled with seed and lie pregnant, and also that the act of love may be more seductive to men. But nought of this is seen to be needful for our wives.

Sometimes ’tis by no divine act or through the shafts of Venus that a woman of form less fair is loved. For at times a woman may bring it about by her own doing, by her unselfish ways, and the neat adornment of her body, that she accustoms you easily to live your life with her. Nay more, habit alone can win love; for that which is struck ever and again by a blow, however light, is yet mastered in long lapse of time, and gives way. Do you not see too how drops of water falling upon rocks in long lapse of time drill through the rocks?

Just for purposes of thinking ahead, I see that this coming weekend (3/21) we will reach the end of book 4, and we'll probably want to recap the general theme on the "love" passages. Please think about whether there are any summary points we ought to cover and let us know in the thread. I will set up the text later today. Here are Munro's notes on the remaining topics, which he makes pretty clear are probably united by the theme that it isn't divine gods that take the lead in these issues:
1209-1232: according as the seed of the man or woman prevails at conception, the child is more like to the one or to the other; and this is so whether the child be male or female.

1233-1277: it is not the gods who grant or withhold offspring: conception depends on the due assortment of man and wife.

1278-1287: often by her own virtues, from no divine interposition, a woman without personal attractions will endear herself to her husband.

Titus: While some of the Greeks speak English, most of them are not bilingual so that has been a significant barrier. I hope to get closer interaction from them over time, but so far only Elli posts regularly with us.

(a) I am pretty much ok with using concepts from the past, but it depends on how clear they are in the modern context. It appears that already in the past and even in his own time Epicurus was accusing others of misrepresenting him, so the essential issue is clarity. And I don't mind the healing attitude, so long as the remedy is clear. And possibly the issue is not so much "formulating solutions" as it is, in the first place, providing solid fundamentals that aren't just a response to problems but positive assertions in themselves.

(b) Only a little. I think i understand the Sydney group to be largely social in orientation, which is fine. The Greek organizations are much more philosophically aggressive, but I don't have a good fix on exactly where they are and where they are going. I am aware that there are divisions of viewpoints over there, and the place to start would be to get a better understanding of what those divisions are, which I have some hints of but am not sure I understand at this point. It appears from a distance that they probably wrestle with some of the same issues we are wrestling with, and I don't understand them to be as "rebellious" of other Greek schools as I perceive the need to be. But I frankly am not sure.

(c) I have heard people make comparisons to the AA approach, and I sense that that would be a productive approach, but I have not had time to pursue it myself.

This is an excerpt, with my quick comments, from Tim Okeefe's entry on Epicurus in the internet encyclopedia of philosophy. It's my view that any set of core principles of Epicurus needs to at least lay the foundation, if not make totally clear, that these conclusions are wrong: https://iep.utm.edu/epicur/#H5

Titus -- In further response to your question, the need to focus on a few core ideas is why I added the graphic that appears at the top of the right sidebar on the home page now. I am sure the list could be tweaked and wording improved, but at the moment these four are my best effort at selecting the most important distinguishing issues about which there ought to be unity. In my view the "tetrapharmakon does not cut it for this purpose, because (1) the focus on pleasure as the goal needs to be more clear and explicit, and (2) the separate of Epicurus from "virtue-based" reasoning is probably so important as to be in the main list. The "all good and evil consists in sensation" doesn't include the word virtue but it does provide a direct quote which seems a good starting point (as with the 'blessed life" quote). I would be tempted to substitute Diogenes of Oinoanda's "shout" quote, to clearly set out that virtue is a means to pleasure and not the end in itself, but that's probably too long for a pithy summary. However if there were one I would be tempted to change if the space allowed it, it would probably be to try to incorporate a short version of the "shout" quote or something from Torquatus on virtue. As it is, I would just use the Diogenes "shout" or explanation from Torquatus in explaining what the "good and evil" statement means.

So this is my best effort currently.

Quote from JJElbert

These categories are observations to aid with the business of living, not premises to aid with the business of Logic.

Yes I completely agree with your full post Joshua and this part in particular. It is sort of a theme of my recent Epicurean thought that it is key to watch out for the lines between logical analysis vs more strict canonical Epicurean analysis so as to avoid confusion. I do think it is necessary to play in both camps so as to be able to communicate with those on "the other side" but if you're not constantly on the lookout for the limits of logical reasoning then you're apt to be trapped. I would think this was a problem in Epicurus' day as well, but maybe it was easier to avoid when there were so many other Epicureans to assist in making sore that errors were quickly corrected.

I believe that this instance (natural and necessary) constitutes a prime example where Epicurus was willing to talk in terms that would be apt to be misconstrued if one didn't understand his premises and realize that he could NOT be talking about universally absolute standards. In my own mind I put this example next to what I think is a parallel example: that of the "limit of pleasure is the absence of pain" which cannot have been meant to convey the extreme minimalism that could be construed from it if one puts aside the bulk of the rest of the philosophy. Just as with "natural and necessary" the device can be very useful in certain types of analysis if one keeps ones head and doesn't lose sight of the big picture.

Yes "virtue-signaling" has a modern political charge to it which I don't mean to invoke in any direction. It is fairly well descriptive though, which is why I have used it somewhat, especially since the issue of 'virtue' is so closely associated with stoicism and the direction Epicurus sought to break away from.

It would definitely be good to develop additional terms to describe the overuse of "virtue-based-analysis"

Quote from Don

So, to respond to your specific questions: I think you can do both. Ideally, one increases the other. The more friends/contacts you make, the deeper one's knowledge of philosophy becomes.

Yes that's totally the way I see it, plus also the angle that you do what is possible. So far, it's really only been "possible" to get together by internet. I would like for much more, but at least internet is the start.

And you are quite right Titus to observe that (at least speaking for myself) participating in the weekly recording of the call has been extremely satisfying, and essentially a new weekly "ritual" for me that has been extremely motivational.

We have been doing monthly skype calls on the twentieth (to which anyone who would like to join should message me) but i strongly think that extending our efforts to more online get-togethers would be very helpful.

Titus:

Yes I am definitely thinking of "maps" and other curated materials, rather than just a huge database of documents. That's an issue that has been at top of my mind recently -- a huge database is as useless as a book on a shelf if it is not being used, and the accessibility tools to actually use it make all the difference.

As to question two I think the real hurdle, and thus what has to be tackled mostly, is the content and focus. There's a real tension involved here because real-world group activity requires a consensus and a goal, and it's hard to get around the problem that when you get real people together in a real local and targeted group, then that group will likely have specific goals and targets that other groups won't agree with. I see this as directly related to the "politics" question --- by marking political issues off limits we allow a consensus to grow and people to work on very high-level goals, but as soon as we start talking the kind of real local activity that we traditionally associate with local groups, you end up with divergent immediate interests and the possibility for "conflict" within and among the local groups. In order to make it work there will have to be a balance where we find a way to agree to focus on high-level goals while at the same time agreeing that we won't agree on the immediate "local" goals. We can all agree, for example, that life is short and for an eternity we exist no more, but when the question turns to how we use our limited time, we'll find much divergence of opinion, and we can't let that divergence prevent us from working together when working together is not only possible, but necessary for the survival of the philosophy.

Actually if I were being really thoughtful about the idea of focusing a program of some type on Epicurean perspectives on Romantic Love, the format would not be so much an "advice column," but instead some kind of general commentary / outline of topics / commonly confronted questions. That way a structured program could be set up around an outline of common issues or commonly asked questions, such as, for only one example, what we mentioned in this episode, the question of proper perspectives on "soul-mates."

As we continue to review the end of Book IV, I would appreciate everyone's help in considering the following:

A. Possibly the biggest obstacle to greater adoption of Epicurean philosophy by young people / people in the prime of life is the dominant view that "absence of pain" means that an Epicurean primarily runs from pain rather than pursues pleasure.

B. Romantic love is of greater intense interest to people than most any other subject.

C. The end of Book 4 clearly and forcefully makes the point that it is natural to pursue intense pleasure, and that Epicurus' advice is not to give up pleasure for the sake of experiencing no pain, but to pursue pleasure wisely so as to enjoy the pleasure (if you deem that pleasure worthwhile) without unnecessary pain.

D. This example and arguments at the end of Book 4 show in dramatic terms that the dominant interpretation of Epicurus is wrong.

E. Therefore a program of explaining Epicurean philosophy through its position on sex/romantic love would be one of the most effective ways of dealing with the biggest obstacle to wider adoption of Epicurean philosophy.

------------------

Would anyone question the proposition "that Epicurus' advice is not to give up pleasure for the sake of experiencing no pain, but to pursue pleasure wisely so as to enjoy the pleasure (if you deem that pleasure worthwhile) without unnecessary pain"?

Episode 62 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. In today's episode, our second on the "romantic love" section of Book IV, we cover several techniques recommended by Lucretius for avoiding the pitfalls of romantic love while still experiencing the pleasures. Please let us know if you have comments or questions in the thread below, or at the permanent link here: We will be covering this topic for the next several weeks, so please be sure to let us know if you have any comments or questions, and we will try to address them over the next several episodes.

This is a new release by a respected member of the current activists for Epicurus in Greece. I have not had a chance to read it myself but it comes well recommended! It is always great to see new "popular" works on the modern relevance of Epicurus.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08YDLZLHS/…15396045&sr=8-1

Just for clarification, you may sometimes see some of us refer to the author as "Babis." Here's the explanation: "Good evening dear friend! Yes this is my name. Charalambos Patzoglou. Babis or Mpampis came from Charalambos."

I did not realize that Panagiotis Pagagiotopoulous, who is active with the Athenian Epicureans, had a personal interest in Thomas Jefferson's Epicurean influences, but I see he has prepared a book on the topic - in English - which I am glad to share news of to the group. The Jefferson connection was one of my own first introductions to the importance of Epicurus, and it appears from the table of contents that Pan has covered much of the important material. Jefferson's letters contain numerous references to his preference for Epicurus and his criticism of Platonism and other anti-Epicurean views, and for those (especially Americans) who have friends who they've wanted to introduce to Epicurus, this book could prove to be very useful. Once I am able to read it myself I am sure I will have more to say about it.

The purpose of this book is to highlight the enormous influence of the ancient Greek civilization and Epicurean philosophy on the great historical figure of Thomas Jefferson and, through him, on modern society as a whole. I hope you’ll enjoy this journey into the thoughts and actions of Thomas Jefferson through his life and writings presented from a different aspect. Thomas Jefferson studied the ancient Greek and Greco-Roman civilization and the knowledge gained from that became the foundation for his inspiration and conduct. His excellent command of both Greek and Latin enabled him to read from the original texts; an ability that helped him discern which of the ancient writings led to the transition from the Dark Ages to the Renaissance and the Age of Enlightenment. The most important result of his study was that, by utilizing this knowledge, he shaped himself into an enlightened person with the aim of establishing a free society that would offer everyone the possibility of personal happiness.In a letter, dated October 31, 1823, to the Greek scholar, Adamantios Korais, who was credited with paving the way for Greek Independence, Jefferson wrote:«Nothing is more likely to forward this object than a study of the fine models of science left by their ancestors, to whom we also are all indebted for the lights which originally led ourselves out of Gothic darkness..». Jefferson delved deep into the study of antiquity by examining much of the history, poetry, architecture, and philosophy of that time. However, he clearly showed a preference for a particular philosophical school. In a letter to William Short, dated October 31, 1819, he states:“As you say of yourself, I too am an Epicurean. I consider the genuine (not the imputed) doctrines of Epicurus as containing everything rational in moral philosophy which Greece and Rome have left us”.Jefferson applied his philosophy, both on an individual and collective level, throughout his entire life. He supported the idea that the individual should enjoy a lifestyle through which his mind might be as fulfilled as his body. The pleasure of reading and contemplating upon universal truths through the study of texts was to be accompanied by necessary material goods and exercise to maintain the health of the body. These were the principles through which he aimed to lead humanity on an evolutionary course of exploration to identify the fundamental elements for the creation of a civilization that would ensure the happiness of people more than any other system of his time.To these ends, he was fortunate to be born in the New World, on a continent far away from the ideological chains that held Europe captive and prevented the application of the enlightened and progressive precepts of the time. Distance afforded him to be unaffected by the rivalries between the theocratic Middle Ages and the Renaissance which, despite the important role it played in history, did not manage to transcend its own biases. Jefferson was able to see the ancient world with a clear mind and thus managed to proceed "undefiled" and without hesitation to definitive conclusions concerning the happiness of the individual and that of society in the contemporary epoch. P.P.

https://www.amazon.com/Thomas-Jeffers…15713935&sr=8-1

Thanks for bumping this thread Titus after almost for years - it is of continuing interest for the reasons that you say. Skimming over what I wrote four years ago I would say basically the same thing, but I think today I have a greater appreciation of the "natural and necessary" discussion being a useful teaching and application method. My concerns have always been more targeted on how I think the observation is used nowadays more than anything else. Sort of like my view of the tetrapharmakon, my concerns are not so much that there are things lacking in the way they were originally presented as much as how attitudes I think are prevalent today encourage their misinterpretation.

Even though no specific list that fits everyone everywhere and all the time is practical, certainly the idea of evaluating our choices according to whether the choice is necessary for life, and whether it stems from needs that are "natural" to all of us, will be of assistance in calculating expected costs and benefits from selecting particular choices. My concern that people should not expect to discover a "magical" list does not take away from the real benefit that someone who approaches the questions properly can gain from the analysis. I do still think that this is one area that Cicero relayed pretty faithfully, and that it is accurate to say that "the principle of classification [is] that the necessary desires are gratified with little trouble or expense; the natural desires also require but little, since nature's own riches, which suffice to content her, are both easily procured and limited in amount; but for the imaginary desires no bound or limit can be discovered."

Godfrey has reminded us that we need to keep in mind a comparison of Lucretius's commentary on this subject with Plato's views --- which he says may be in Phaedrus, but unfortunately I don't know much about his views beyond the generic definition of "Platonic love" RE: Episode Sixty-One - The Perils of Romantic Love (Part 1)

I'll see if i can find some basic info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonic_love

Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonic_love

Platonic love (often lower-cased as platonic love)^[1] is a type of love that is not sexual. It is named after Greek philosopher Plato, though the philosopher never used the term himself. Platonic love as devised by Plato concerns rising through levels of closeness to wisdom and true beauty from carnal attraction to individual bodies to attraction to souls, and eventually, union with the truth. This is the ancient, philosophical interpretation. Platonic love is examined in Plato's dialogue, the Symposium, which has as its topic the subject of love, or more generally the subject of Eros. It explains the possibilities of how the feeling of love began and how it has evolved, both sexually and non-sexually, and defines genuine platonic love as inspiring a person's mind and soul and directing their attention towards spiritual matters. Of particular importance is the speech of Socrates, who attributes to the prophetess Diotima an idea of platonic love as a means of ascent to contemplation of the divine, an ascent is known as the "Ladder of Love". For Diotima and Plato generally, the most correct use of love of human beings is to direct one's mind to love of divinity. Socrates defines love based on separate classifications of pregnancy (to bear offspring); pregnancy of the body, pregnancy of the soul, and direct connection to existence. Pregnancy of the body results in human children. Pregnancy of the soul, the next step in the process, produces "virtue"—which is the soul (truth) translating itself into material form.[3] "... virtue for the Greeks means self-sameness ... in Plato's terms, Being or idea."(106)[3] Eros Pausanias, in Plato's Symposium (181b–182a), defines two types of the love known as "Eros": vulgar Eros, or earthly love, and divine Eros, or divine love. Pausanias defines vulgar Eros as material attraction towards a person's beauty for the purposes of physical pleasure and reproduction, and divine Eros as starting from physical attraction but transcending gradually to love for supreme beauty, placed on a similar level to the divine. This concept of divine Eros was later transformed into the term "platonic love". Vulgar Eros and divine Eros were both considered to be connected, and part of the same continuous process of pursuing perfection of one's being,[4] with the purpose of mending one's human nature and eventually reaching a point of unity where there is no longer an aspiration or need to change.[5] "Eros is ... a moment of transcendence ... in so far as the other can never be possessed without being annihilated in its status as the other, at which point both desire and transcendence would cease ...

Godfrey if that is a theme of "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" - which I have never read - I would be interested in whether there are also paralllels to Lucian's "Hermotimus" - if you have read that. I think of Hermotimus as one of the best arguments against chasing too many rabbits, but I did not realize that that was an aspect of "ZATAOMM"