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Welcome to the forum Jack! You've posted a lot of material that is going to take some time to absorb, but it certainly looks like your interests align with those of the people here, and we'll be looking to hear more from you. In the meantime, welcome aboard!
Do you mind telling us in which podcast you heard about this forum?
Hello and welcome to the forum ResponsiblyFree
This is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.
Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.
All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.
One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.
In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.
It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read.
And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.
Welcome to the forum!
They don't/can't exist as physical entities
That can't exist in the physical world.
I think that Epicurus would qualify both of those statements by adding the words ...HERE IN THIS WORLD to the end of them.
That seems to me to be the reasoning involved in placing them in the "intermundia" where either (1) the environment is by nature fully supportive and not harmful to them or (2) the gods by some technology or system are able to control their environment with the same result.
Maybe that might appear to some of us as a rationalization merging into pure idealism, but I also think that Epicurus thought his physics of the infinite/eternal universe populated with many forms of life, and the theory of isonomia described in Cicero's "On the nature of the gods," impel the same conclusion in reality.
“These discoveries of Epicurus are so acute in themselves and so subtly expressed that not everyone would be capable of appreciating them. Still I may rely on your intelligence, and make my exposition briefer than the subject demands. Epicurus then, as he not merely discerns abstruse and recondite things with his mind's eye, but handles them as tangible realities, teaches that the substance and nature of the gods is such that, in the first place, it is perceived not by the senses but by the mind, and not materially or individually, like the solid objects which Epicurus in virtue of their substantiality entitles steremnia; but by our perceiving images owing to their similarity and succession, because an endless train of precisely similar images arises from the innumerable atoms and streams towards the gods, our mind with the keenest feelings of pleasure fixes its gaze on these images, and so attains an understanding of the nature of a being both blessed and eternal.
Moreover there is the supremely potent principle of infinity, which claims the closest and most careful study; we must understand that it has in the sum of things everything has its exact match and counterpart. This property is termed by Epicurus isonomia, or the principle of uniform distribution. From this principle it follows that if the whole number of mortals be so many, there must exist no less a number of immortals, and if the causes of destruction are beyond count, the causes of conservation also are bound to be infinite.
I might be comfortable with "theoretical limit" in place if "abstract ideal.". Of those two words "ideal" seems to me to be ok - it is the "abstract" that tends to imply that the thing being discussed is set apart from reality and impossible by definition to obtain.
What makes absence of pain so difficult is more a practical difficulty of obtaining and maintaining that status. But some of us surely come closer than others, and the possibility that under some conditions all obstacles might be overcome seems to be one of the conceptual or preconceptual attributes of what we would identify as godlike.
Maybe this would be a variation of the cliche about not letting the "perfect" get in the way of the "good.". Just because we know at the start that we are unlikely to succeed in sustaining continual pure pleasure with no mixture of pain does not mean that we should not set that mentally as our view of the goal.
Further on the implications of the word "virtue" is not the Latin form grounded in the implications of "strength"? Since we have to deal with modern associations, maybe "strength" has less victorian implication even then excellences, and more clearly conveys the issue that it is necessary to answer the question "strength toward what purpose?"
Well that raises a good question Godfrey - as to whether Franklin considered this "list of virtues" to be goals in themselves, or whether he realized that they were instrumental. You're definitely right that any list has to be clearly denominated as instrumental only and always subject to change. With that in mind maybe it shouldn't be a list of "virtues" at all, but a list of precepts as joshua is saying that we remind ourselves to apply every day.
I do think that it would probably be a very useful exercise to rewrite Franklin's list in Epicurean terms, then prepare a chart to serve as a weekly reminder checklist. The methodology probably appeals to a certain type of person who likes outlines and checklists, and the comparison of the content of the two would be enlightening in itself.
That is very helpful! I switched the search to Epicurus and find very little. No doubt we are going to find a blend, with a tendency toward stoicism perhaps like Aurelius, but I don't yet have a feel for the mix because Franklin seems practical above all and that would seemingly out the brakes on "virtue" in and for itself.
Yes definitely. I have not read enough of Franklin to know whether he had anything much to say about Stoicism or Epicurus, but there's definitely a stoic tinge to some - but not all - of the material. I do think the way he organizes it is an interesting thought for those who are into organizing their self-improvement, and I tend to think that many people who come looking for that approach would also appreciate a structured presentation of it.
Episode 78 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. In this Episode 78 our goal was to read approximately Latin lines 1105 - 1240 of Book Five, but due to the important ethical implications of the subject we covered only a small part of that. So today our discussion will break well short of the material that we read, and we will come back next week to tackle the rest. Now let's join Martin reading today's text:
Welcome to Episode Seventy-Nine of Lucretius Today.
I am your host Cassius, and together with my panelists from the EpicureanFriends.com forum, we'll walk you through the six books of Lucretius' poem, and discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. We encourage you to study Epicurus for yourself, and we suggest the best place to start is the book, "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Canadian professor Norman DeWitt.
For anyone who is not familiar with our podcast, please visit EpicureanFriends.com where you will find our goals and our ground rules. If you have any questions about those, please be sure to contact us at the forum for more information.
In this Episode 79 we will read approximately Latin line 1151-1240 of Book Five. We will talk about how the worship of the gods first arose, and what misery it brought.
Now let's join Don reading today's text:
Latin Lines 1151 - 1240
Munro Notes-
1136-1160: thus kings were overthrown, and anarchy followed ; till nations weary of violence established laws and constitutions : then fear of punishment restrained men, as injustice generally recoils on the wrongdoer, and if he escape punishment, he cannot escape the terrors of conscience.
1161-1193: men believed in and worshipped gods, because they saw with their waking minds and still more in sleep shapes of preterhuman size and beauty and strength: as these shapes were ever present and as their might appeared.so great, they deemed them to be immortal; and to be blessed, because they could do such deeds and had no fear of death : they saw too the seasons change, and all the wonders of the heaven ; they therefore placed their gods in heaven and believed all things to be governed by their providence.
1194-1220: what misery men brought on themselves by assigning to the gods such powers and passions! the ceremonies of superstition shew not genuine piety which consists rather in despising such things: true when we look up to heaven and think of its beginning and end, this fear of the gods is apt to seize on us
Browne 1743
[1151] And therefore men were tired of this hostile way, which soured all their pleasures of life with the fears of punishment; for force and wrong entangle the man that uses them, and commonly recoil upon the head that contrived them. Nor is it easy for that man to live a secure and pleasant life who by his conduct breaks through the common bonds of peace. Though he has the cunning to deceive both gods and men, his heart always trembles for fear of being discovered; for men often talk in their sleep, and are said to reveal things when they are delirious by a disease, and to bring to light their plots that had been long concealed.
[1161] And now I’ll show the cause that first dispersed the notions of the gods throughout the world, and filled the towns with altars, and ordered solemn rites to be performed, and holy ceremonies now in use, when victims smoked on every sacred fire; and whence that fixed horror in the minds of men, that builds new temples to the gods in every corner of the earth, and compels men to celebrate their festivals: 'tis not so hard a thing to show the cause.
[1169] For men, in the beginning of the world, were used to see divine and glorious forms, even when awake; and in their sleep those images appeared in more majestic state, and raise their wonder. And these they thought had sense. They fancied that they moved their limbs and spoke proud words, suitable to the grand appearance they showed, and to the mightiness of their strength. They ascribed eternity to them, because a constant stream of images incessantly came on, in form the same (that could not change) and then, they could not die, because no power, they thought, could crush beings so strong in force, so large in size. And they thought them infinitely happy, because they were never vexed with the fears of death, and likewise in their dreams they saw them do things strange and wonderful with ease, and without fatigue.
[1183] Besides, they observed the motions of the heavens were regular and certain, that the various seasons of the year came orderly about, but could discover nothing of the causes of these revolutions, and therefore they had this resort: they ascribed every thing to the power of the gods, and made every thing depend upon their will and command. The habitation and abode of these gods they placed in the heavens, for there they saw the sun and moon were rolled about; the moon, I say, they observed there, and the day and the night, and the stars serenely bright, and the blazing meteors wandering in the dark, the flying lightning, the clouds, the dew, the rain, the snow, the thunder, the hail, the dreadful noises, the threatenings and loud roarings of the sky.
[1194] Unhappy race of men! To ascribe such events, to charge the gods with such distracted rage. What sorrows have they brought upon themselves? What miseries upon us? What floods of tears have they entailed upon our posterity? Nor can there be any piety for a wretch with his head veiled, to be ever turning himself about towards a stone, to creep to every altar, to throw himself flat upon the ground, to spread his arms before the shrines of the gods, to sprinkle the altars abundantly with the blood of beasts, and to heap vows upon vows. To look upon things with an undisturbed mind, this is Piety.
[1204] For when we behold the celestial canopy of the great world, and the heavens spread over with the shining stars; when we reflect upon the courses of the sun and moon, then doubts – that before lay quiet under a load of other evils – begin to awake, and grow strong within us. What! Are there gods endued with so great power that can direct the various motions of all the bright luminaries above? For the ignorance of causes gives great uneasiness to the doubting mind of man. And hence we doubt whether the world had a beginning, and shall ever have an end; how long the heavens (the walls of this world) shall be able to bear the fatigue of such mighty motions, or whether they are made eternal by the gods, and so shall forever roll on, and despise the strong power of devouring age.
[1218] Besides, what heart does not faint with a dread of the gods? Whose are the limbs that will not shrink, when the scorched earth quakes with the horrible stroke of lightning, and the roaring thunder scours over the whole heavens? Do not the people and the nations shake? And proud tyrants, struck with fear of those avenging powers, tremble every limb, lest the dismal day were come to punish them for the baseness of their crimes and the arrogance of their speeches?
Munro 1886
[1151] Thence fear of punishment mars the prizes of life; for violence and wrong enclose all who commit them in their meshes and do mostly recoil on him from whom they began; and it is not easy for him who by his deeds transgresses the terms of the public peace to pass a tranquil and a peaceful existence. For though he eludes God and man, yet he cannot but feel a misgiving that his secret can be kept for ever; seeing that many by speaking in their dreams or in the wanderings of disease have often we are told betrayed themselves and have disclosed their hidden deeds of evil and their sins.
[1161] And now what cause has spread over great nations the worship of the divinities of the gods and filled towns with altars and led to the performance of stated sacred rites, rites now in fashion on solemn occasions and in solemn places, from which even now, is implanted in mortals a shuddering awe which raises new temples of the gods over the whole earth and prompts men to crowd them on festive days, all this it is not so difficult to explain in words.
[1169] Even then in sooth the races of mortal men would see in waking mind glorious forms, would see them in sleep of yet more marvelous size of body. To these then they would attribute sense, because they seemed to move their limbs and to utter lofty words suitable to their glorious aspect and surpassing powers. And they would give them life everlasting, because their face would ever appear before them and their form abide; yes and yet without all this, because they would not believe that beings possessed of such powers could lightly be overcome by any force. And they would believe them to be preeminent in bliss, because none of them was ever troubled with the fear of death, and because at the same time in sleep they would see them perform many miracles, yet feel on their part no fatigue from the effort.
[1183] Again they would see the system of heaven and the different seasons of the years come round in regular succession, and could not find out by what causes this was done; therefore they would seek a refuge in handing over all things to the gods and supposing all things to be guided by their nod. And they placed in heaven the abodes and realms of the gods, because night and moon are seen to roll through heaven, moon day and night and night’s austere constellations and night-wandering meteors of the sky and flying bodies of flame, clouds, sun, rains, snow, winds, lightnings, hail, and rapid rumblings and loud threatful thunderclaps.
[1194] O hapless race of men, when that they charged the gods with such acts and coupled with them bitter wrath! What groanings did they then beget for themselves, what wounds for us, what tears for our children’s children! No act is it of piety to be often seen with veiled head to turn to a stone and approach every altar and fall prostrate on the ground and spread out the palms before the statues of the gods and sprinkle the altars with much blood of beasts and link vow on to vow, but rather to be able to look on all things with a mind at peace.
[1204] For when we turn our gaze on the heavenly quarters of the great upper world and ether fast above the glittering stars, and direct our thoughts to the courses of the sun and moon, then into our breasts burdened with other ills that fear as well begins to exalt its reawakened head, the fear that we may haply find the power of the gods to be unlimited, able to wheel the bright stars in their varied motion; for lack of power to solve the question troubles the mind with doubts, whether there was ever a birth-time of the world, and whether likewise there is to be any end; how far the walls of the world can endure this strain of restless motion; or whether gifted by the grace of the gods with an everlasting existence they may glide on through a never-ending tract of time and defy the strong powers of immeasurable ages.
[1218] Again, who is there whose mind does not shrink into itself with fear of the gods, whose limbs do not cower in terror, when the parched earth rocks with the appalling thunderstroke and rattlings run through the great heaven? Do not peoples and nations quake, and proud monarchs shrink into themselves smitten with fear of the gods, lest for any foul transgression or overweening word the heavy time of reckoning has arrived at its fulness?
Bailey 1921
[1151] Thence fear of punishment taints the prizes of life. For violence and hurt tangle every man in their toils, and for the most part fall on the head of him, from whom they had their rise, nor is it easy for one who by his act breaks the common pact of peace to lead a calm and quiet life. For though he be unnoticed of the race of gods and men, yet he must needs mistrust that his secret will be kept for ever; nay indeed, many by speaking in their sleep or raving in fever have often, so ’tis said, betrayed themselves, and brought to light misdeeds long hidden.
[1161] Next, what cause spread abroad the divine powers of the gods among great nations, and filled cities with altars, and taught men to undertake sacred rites at yearly festivals, rites which are honoured to-day in great empires and at great places; whence even now there is implanted in mortals a shuddering dread, which raises new shrines of the gods over all the world, and constrains men to throng them on the holy days; of all this it is not hard to give account in words.
[1169] For indeed already the races of mortals used to perceive the glorious shapes of the gods with waking mind, and all the more in sleep with wondrous bulk of body. To these then they would assign sense because they were seen to move their limbs, and to utter haughty sounds befitting their noble mien and ample strength. And they gave them everlasting life because their images came in constant stream and the form remained unchanged, and indeed above all because they thought that those endowed with such strength could not readily be vanquished by any force. They thought that they far excelled in happiness, because the fear of death never harassed any of them, and at the same time because in sleep they saw them accomplish many marvels, yet themselves not undergo any toil.
[1183] Moreover, they beheld the workings of the sky in due order, and the diverse seasons of the year come round, nor could they learn by what causes that was brought about. And so they made it their refuge to lay all to the charge of the gods, and to suppose that all was guided by their will. And they placed the abodes and quarters of the gods in the sky, because through the sky night and the moon are seen to roll on their way, moon, day and night, and the stern signs of night, and the torches of heaven that rove through the night, and the flying flames, clouds, sunlight, rain, snow, winds, lightning, hail, and the rapid roar and mighty murmurings of heaven’s threats.
[1194] Ah! unhappy race of men, when it has assigned such acts to the gods and joined therewith bitter anger! what groaning did they then beget for themselves, what sores for us, what tears for our children to come! Nor is it piety at all to be seen often with veiled head turning towards a stone, and to draw near to every altar, no, nor to lie prostrate on the ground with outstretched palms before the shrines of the gods, nor to sprinkle the altars with the streaming blood of beasts, nor to link vow to vow, but rather to be able to contemplate all things with a mind at rest.
[1204] For indeed when we look up at the heavenly quarters of the great world, and the firm-set ether above the twinkling stars, and it comes to our mind to think of the journeyings of sun and moon, then into our hearts weighed down with other ills, this misgiving too begins to raise up its wakened head, that there may be perchance some immeasurable power of the gods over us, which whirls on the bright stars in their diverse motions. For lack of reasoning assails our mind with doubt, whether there was any creation and beginning of the world, and again whether there is an end, until which the walls of the world may be able to endure this weariness of restless motion, or whether gifted by the gods’ will with an everlasting being they may be able to glide on down the everlasting groove of time, and set at naught the mighty strength of measureless time.
[1218] Moreover, whose heart does not shrink with terror of the gods, whose limbs do not crouch in fear, when the parched earth trembles beneath the awful stroke of lightning and rumblings run across the great sky? Do not the peoples and nations’ tremble, and proud kings shrink in every limb, thrilled with the fear of the gods, lest for some foul crime or haughty word the heavy time of retribution be ripe?
Yes that link I posted in the first thread contains the statement that he added it after a Quaker friend reminded him that he was too stubborn and obnoxious or something like that.
Definitely have to rewrite many of these, especially THIRTEEN! Also - did he leave number 12 without illustration?
I am not particularly familiar with the details of Benjamin Franklin's life, but I suspect there is more than a little compatibility between his "Poor Richard's Almanac" sayings and Epicurean philosophy. That's a topic in itself, but for the moment as we talk about Practical Exercises, I wonder if there is any use in adapting Franklin's journaling method:
https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/benjami…/text/chapter-9
Two graphics:
This may be some useful commentary: https://www.journalinghabit.com/journal-tips-b…ck_YourProgress
First:
My guess is that, in antiquity, this was accomplished through personal instruction and daily interaction in the garden. Lacking such a framework today....
Yes we lack the ability to live / work in close quarters in a single location in a single city, but we do have the option of interacting relatively closely on the internet, so we should work on ways of increasing that involvement.
More to the point of the main issue:
Specifically, be mindful of times when you are being affected by anger or favor. Experience these conditions, reflect without judgment, and carry on.
It is an interesting question to me whether it's absolutely clear that we (as humans) should wish to be totally unaffected by anger or favor, as I don't think that it's as direct an analysis to say that these necessarily imply weakness in the human context. My reading of the situation of the gods is that the intermundia and the gods' control over it allows them to experience totally uninterrupted pleasure, without any mixture of pain, and therefore it would imply weakness in them inconsistent with their nature if they experienced gratitude or anger.
With us as humans, however, our nature requires that we participate in life and we're naturally going to run into experiences that can (and should!) generate anger and gratitude. We need to respond appropriately and not let things go further than they should, but I doubt it really makes sense to think about all anger or gratitude as signifying weakness in humans. To take such a position would probably pretty much constitute the essence of Stoicism, wouldn't it?
In fact, in DL there is the saying that the wise man will experience more deeply than others, and this will not hinder his wisdom (if I recall correctly).
So this is a good exercise but we probably need to point out this kind of thing at the very beginning of it.
The mere act of focusing on pains increases them.
I would think the same thing could be said about pleasures?
When we're talking about focusing on something, that's a mental choice to take over the role of deciding what is most important at the moment, and surely it makes sense whenever possible to focus on pleasures, since ultimately they are the reason we do everything else (even accept short-term pains).
The whole topic of "end-of-life" decisions is a hugely important one that we have covered only rarely if at all. Now is a good time to get started on that and I will definitely help. Do we need one or more new subforums under Ethics or are the current ones sufficient?
Currently: Death and Dying
At least for me, it reinforces the understanding that if we can find pleasure even in death, we can certainly find pleasure in each moment of living.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you probably mean "if we can find pleasure even in THINKING ABOUT death....."??
I would draw a very bright line and never get close to implying anything that indicates that we can find pleasure in actually being dead. I gather that there are in fact people (and Don's translation includes that part) who argue that it is better never to be born, or to go to death quickly if we are alive, and they have apparently some elaborate rationalization why that is generally to be preferred.
I think Epicurus stands for the exact opposite - that pleasure is the focus of life; that only the living experience pleasure or pain; that life is the only opportunity that we have for pleasure, and that we would never give up live voluntarily expect in those circumstances where we have confidence that to live on would bring much more pain than pleasure.
It sounds to me like some versions of Eastern thought (including some forms of judaism) take the position that death and or nothingness are superior to life, and I would strongly advocate never coming near any attempt to reconcile or make peace with those views, as they seem to be exactly what Epicurus is arguing strongly against.
Yep kile is definitely looking for epex and I will look for that next.
Oh yes that looks very nice
