Posts by Cassius

If Julius is who commissioned the fresco, then portraying him in a prime location as if he is the one harking back to the books and smiling while he imagines the scene, that he is in actuality making available to us, would be a nice way to honor him.

Seems that often Irascible volatile warriors tend to like to have their images preserved for eternity, however. I have no opinion at this point; that's the kind of suggestion that would take a lot of exploration.

You think Julius II looks liked the wreathed figure in blue? He does seem to have carried some significant weight.

Another reason I agree that some placement nearer Plato would be significant is that it continues to impress me that Cicero did not seem to have an especially high impression of Aristotle, if the amount of time paid to him in "On Ends" is an indication. I understand that the Thomists may have been responsible for elevating Aristotle's stature, but I am thinking that someone who was brought up in the Ciceronian tradition (which is probably more insightful as to the significance of the Stoics and Epicureans) would not have Aristotle in as central a location. I am gathering that while Epicurus agreed more with Aristotle than with Plato, that the ancient Epicureans probably considered Aristotle little more than a watered-down Platonist.

We're seeing I think how this fresco is really helpful for advancing basic discussion.

We see Plato pointing to the skies (to god and to his true reality).

We see Aristotle disputing that, and pointing forward, saying that reality is here (too?), but also that our reality comes from god / the prime mover.

Within that context, how would we tell a young Epicurean student to place Epicurus in this scene? How would we best imagine Epicurus gesturing or otherwise making his basic point about supernatural gods and the nature of reality?

The thought occurred to me too that it could be fig leaves, but they look more like some kind of oak to me.

So if the Scholastics and Thomists say that god provided humanity with practical reason which is useful for knowing how to live, as a complement to divine revelation (presumably), then what is the thumbnail summary of the Augustinian position. That human / practical reason is totally useless for ultimate questions? Would Plato agree that such would be a logical conclusion of his theories?

Don -- I note in that article you linked this passage below. I haven't yet tried to get a timeline on availability of Diogenes Laertius' biographies but this would indicate "widespread" and extensive knowledge of Epicurean philosophy by 1433 - which I gather is approximately the same time Greenblatt pins to the "rediscovery" of Lucretius. That would seem quite a coincidence in timing, as if perhaps one fed into the other. I'm still thinking that there's little reason to think that DL (and thus the basics of Epicurean philosophy) was ever gone from fairly widespread circulation. If there was a single "encyclopedia" that a reputable monk or monastery would want in its collection, seems to me that DL would be it. (I'm trying to think like a librarian! )

Joshua does that appear to be a laurel wreath to you on Dante's head (above)? So the laurel is distinquished by somewhat pointed longer leaves all going in the same direction? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_wreath

Is there a known association of someone/something with oak wreaths?

I came back here this morning to check to see if the figure of Aristotle appeared to be "walking." Portraying him that way would have been one of the most obvious allusions to Aristotle's school, yet Raphael apparently chose not to do that.

OK so he's the ONLY figure in the fresco with a laurel wreath. The suggestion that laurel wreaths are identified with poets would go a long way toward helping with the identity of this figure if we are confident of that association.

Quote from Nate

This entire side represents Cynics and Stoics,

That's one of the factors that would dispose me to think that Raphael balanced that with the side on the left being Epicurean.

Is it possible that there is a time element with the figures outward from the center are the oldest in Greek history, with those nearer the center being ranked not only in significance but also to a degree in time? In other words, outside of the central pair and the two groupings immediately around them, are any of the figures arranged further out (to the left, right, and foreground) visibly identifiable as being significantly LATER than the relatively early Stoics and Epicureans? I would tend to think that as a thumbnail summary most people consider Plato and Aristotle to be of most significance in history, with the Stoics and Epicureans immediately following/carrying forward their differences, and that everyone else (even Socrates) was a forerunner of this great Plato-Aristotle-Stoic-Epicurean axis.

Yes and the (dismissive?) expression of the figure in blue listening to him seems relevant too.

Quote from Nate

It also reflects the Plato-influence Augustinian and Scholastic schools of theology versus Aristotle-influenced Thomist school

I don't want to suggest we go off-track here, and maybe a separate thread would be better, but in reading this I realize that I don't have even a thumbnail summary in my mind of the practical difference between Augustinian/Scholastic vs Thomist theology. To the extent it would help us contrast these against Epicurean views, I wonder if there is anything brief we can say to set a base for how those two camps differed from each other (as viewed from an Epicurean perspective, not trying to list all possible differences).

As to "Zeno" I agree about the beard, but doesn't Raphael have the figure as largely bald, which Zeno was not?

As to the possibility of a figure being Marcus Aurelius, do we have any other examples of someone other than from pre-Christian Greece being in the fresco?

Your reference to the colors has me asking this: I guess it's inevitable that colors are re-used, but I wonder if there is any pattern to the coloring of any of the outfits? (EDIT - I see Nate anticipated and at least partly answered my question here.)

I hate it when I can't find something. I just posted a copy of the above into a facebook thread, and I'd like to be able to post a link to where the photo of the original can be seen. If anyone comes across that please add it to this thread. I know I have seen an entry in a book or a museum page where I originally got this (the image on the left)

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I would expect that most discussion will continue to take place in this thread and I am not specifically encouraging new posts in the new threads. However it's already almost impossible to read through this thread given its length, so I'm giving the option to future posters to write their new comments on particular figures where they may more easily be found.