Posts by Cassius

This is a long podcast taking time to edit into final form but I'll occasionally add a note for future listeners. When talking about the potential for Epicurus being arrogant we touched on the issue of Epicurus having his father celebrate the birthday of his mother and brother (if I remember correctly). The point I'd like to drop in here is that while that may sound strange, most arrogant people I know generally ask that their own birthday be celebrated, rather than someone else's. Of course you could say that the strangeness increases the arrogance, but I think everything can be viewed from multiple perspectives and each person has to add the the whole picture for themselves.

If anyone else is interested let me know.

Yes I am thinking there is a strong possibility that the Greek wording focuses on perceptions, as LSJ indicate, and that it is Bailey who makes it into something implying the involvement of concepts and ideas, much as he translates anticipations / prolepsis as "concepts"

This is part of the relevant discussion from Torquatus:

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He judged that the logic of your school possesses no efficacy either for the amelioration of life or for the facilitation of debate. He laid the greatest stress on natural science. That branch of knowledge enables us to realize clearly the force of words and the natural conditions of speech and the theory of consistent and contradictory expressions; and when we have learned the constitution of the universe we are relieved of superstition, are emancipated from the dread of death, are not agitated through ignorance of phenomena, from which ignorance, more than any thing else, terrible panics often arise ; finally, our characters will also be improved when we have learned what it is that nature craves. Then again if we grasp a rm knowledge of phenomena, and uphold that canon, which almost fell from heaven into human ken, that test to which we are to bring all our judgments concerning things, we shall never succumb to any man’s eloquence and abandon our opinions.

[64] Moreover, unless the constitution of the world is thoroughly understood, we shall by no means be able to justify the verdicts of our senses. Further, our mental perceptions all arise from our sensations; and if these are all to be true, as the system of Epicurus proves to us, then only will cognition and perception become possible. Now those who invalidate sensations and say that perception is altogether impossible, cannot even clear the way for this very argument of theirs when they have thrust the senses aside. Moreover, when cognition and knowledge have been invalidated, every principle concerning the conduct of life and the performance of its business becomes invalidated. So from natural science we borrow courage to withstand the fear of death, and rmness to face superstitious dread, and tranquillity of mind, through the removal of ignorance concerning the mysteries of the world, and self-control, arising from the elucidation of the nature of the passions and their different classes, and as I shewed just now, our leader again has established the canon and criterion of knowledge and thus has imparted to us a method for marking off falsehood from truth.

I think this is where I got the idea that the best meaning is "repeated" or "separate" perceptions: this is Hicks in the Loeb edition. "And the reality of separate perceptions guarantees the truth of our senses."

I better wait for Don to weigh in before thinking too much about Bailey's version drives my blood pressure too high!

Yes exactly Kalosyni. That's the ultimate point and probably why that made it into the principal doctrines. If you argue that perceptions are invalid then you have no frame of reference to conclude that anything is certain or even knowable at all.

This is one of those that makes sense to read together to try to figure out the ultimate points. Clearly one basic point is that the perceptions of the senses are the ultimate evidence that any knowledge has to be based on. As to 24 he seems then to be hammering home the point that we know that multiple perceptions can end up pointing in different directions, and so we always have to keep a bright line distinction in our mind that some things we have enough evidence to be certain about, but some we aren't, and we can't confuse the two together.

And that gets back to the references on how we distinguish something as true:

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From DIogenes Laertius: "for all reason is dependent upon sensations; nor can one sensation refute another, for we attend to them all alike. Again, the fact of apperception confirms the truth of the sensations.

That's Bailey and I see he uses the word "apperception" which might in fact might be a terrible word choice. We need Don here but it's my understanding from reading commentators is that "apperception" is a more modern word (see here) and that the better interpretation of this statement is simply that the senses guarantee themselves. In other words you guarantee the truth of the conclusion that the oar is not bent by removing it from the water and looking again, or the truth of the fact that the tower is square and not round by walking closer to the tower and looking at it up close, with the result that the truth of the senses is established by USING them, over and over, and then checking to see if the result is the same or different. For example, YONGE, which says that it is "the reality and evidence of sensation that confirms the certainty of the senses.":

Mensch:

But I would argue it is clear that the bottom line is that the truth of the concepts we form is squarely dependent upon the observations of our senses, and that's why it is nonsensical and circular to argue that anticipations ARE concepts (as Bailey seems to do).

Right. Context is everything. What we might do if we lived in 200BC Athens or Rome is different than our circumstances in 2022. And from virtually every perspective of age, sex, location, education level, financial resources and on and on and on what a person is going to do to consider and implement Epicurean ideas is going to be different.

If I get your question, it is uploaded as an MP3. I will experiment with a larger file size when I upload the next episode

Quote from Don

which while true is often used to characterize a daredevil, no-holds-barred lifestyle.

I wouldn't say that YOLO necessarily has a completely negative connotation, but yes it's often used like "I'm going to get on that "Biggest Rollercoaster West of the Mississippi" no matter what you think - 'You Only Live Once!'"

I think Joshua is correct that the quality issue is probably related to Skype, but it's not clear that that's the whole problem. I don't think any of us are using super-professional equipment so that's probably part of the issue. If you are good with technology and have suggestions, let me know.

(Also, I know that I AM compressing somewhat to reduce the audio file size from the raw skype to the final file uploaded to the podcast provider. I will look into that issue as well.)

Quote from smoothiekiwi

By dedicating myself to the Epicurean lifestyle, that would mean that I couldn't lead deep and meaningful relations with people around me, simply because we would talk "on different pages".

I think you should be careful not to take that too far, in the spirit of the cliche of "not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good." Not many of us (maybe none of us?) have very many "classical Epicurean" friends in our personal local lives, but we can't let that stop us from developing deep and meaningful relations with those friends we do have.

Quote from smoothiekiwi

This issue has honestly occupied my mind for some time now, and- just like with Stoicism-, that's a big "red flag" there. I couldn't find a solution to this problem yet, and I think that there isn't any.

The quote above doesn't make it clear but you're still talking about the issue of "how long do you have to live in order to live a full life?" I think it is important NOT to let this issue go, because it's closely related to the issue of how long we should desire to live, and it's clear that Epicurus said not to treat that question lightly. It does have an answer and we can figure out Epicurus' position if we think about it hard enough. If you want to create a separate thread on it, please do. In the meantime I will say that I think you are right to the extent that there is no one single number of years that is a minimum for which we can say "He didn't live XX years so he didnt have a happy or full life."

Quote from smoothiekiwi

I simply don't believe in the fact that I can unfold my human potential at 47. What if I die before that? My life wouldn't be fulfilled, I wouldn't have had a good life because I couldn't reach my potential? That sounds really stupid to me.

Your post contains lots of interesting and good points, and I want to call this one out as especially good. I like the way you think!

And YOLO means "You Only Live Once" (which implies seize the day / make the best of it)

In fact this already works, as you can see from the red circles where I have added those PDFs to my local directory. So now I can do a single search and include Don's and Nate's material at the same time. The limitation on using the PDF format in the list of files is as you see, it's a little harder to read. The program can't re-wrap and format the PDF text the same way it can a markdown file - but still searchable and copy-pastable.

(Oops appears I am jumping the gun and Obsidian is not indexing and searching the PDFs. I see they are talking about that issue and it should be there soon, but for the moment it can just view them. Not sure about Loqseq.)

Simple conversion of Nate's PDF to MD using the Calibre ebook program yields:

Which is not well formatted or hyperlinked but is still fine to work with. The point of a global master search is that you sometime remember a single word of a translation that nobody else chooses to use, and you need to figure out where that came from - a needle in a haystack unless you have a search facility that can go through all your collected files.

It occurs to me now that I have posted about this that it would be desirable to add Nate's book on the Principal Doctrines and Don's book on the letter to Menoeceus into the same local list of searchable files (included in the zip that we eventually distribute). It's easy to use the PDF version so that's probably the way to start, but at some point if the programs you guys are using to generate the PDFs have an "export to Markdown" or "export to txt" ability, I might ask you about that too. No need to worry about that now til you see further what I am suggesting.

I am starting this thread as a place to provide updates on something I have been working on for my own use, and can make available to others. As I mentioned in this post I have been working with two new free programs that are intended to assist in research and knowledge organization. The key to both of them is that they store their files in text-based files coded only with "markdown" syntax for formatting italics and headings and the like, and that makes them easily usable in many different programs. It also hopefully insulates them from becoming obsolete or "locked in" to any single program, which would be the case to some extent for something like Microsoft Word.

I have a large collection of many of the core documents already in markdown/text format, and that's the basis for the material that I have already posted here as the "Epicurus College Course Material." You can already use that as an online source to search through several of the Lucretius translations and other material.

But the real goal is to have a fast and complete local set of files that can easily and quickly be searched and then used to produce new articles, books, and other writing. Another example is that I am working on a project to make a presentation for Christos Yapijakis, and I am going to use these programs to generate the slides to be used during the talk (if I get that far quickly enough).

For now that's really all I want to post, except to say that I think the more productive of the two programs is probably "Obsidian," but Logseq is a close second and does some things better than obsidian. The real benefit is that both are essentially free (you can pay for some nonessential addins if you like, but they are not necessary) and both use the same format files. So with very minor tweaking (none is necessary) you can use both programs at the same time on the same files and get the benefit of both.

You can make Obsidian or Logseq look pretty much any way you like it, but here is a sample screen from Obsidian showing a search:

And an example of how easy it is to compare two translations side by side:

I will be preparing a zipped file with all the core markdown files of the texts that I have already, most of which are those already available at the "Epicurus College Course Material." Once I post a list of those that I already have, we can talk about others contributing their own files to the list so we all have access to the same material.

It is very helpful to have everything in the texts searchable by a single program that provides useful search results in a form that can be easily copied and pasted into new posts and articles etc.

Couple of quotes that come to mind more as Epicurus' Birthday material than anything else, but touched upon in this episode:

This is the opening to Book Three, comparing Epicurus to a father figure. I think we mentioned this on the podcast episode and it is a good reflection of what I think is a healthy attitude of respect and appreciation without crossing the line into cultism. Is it "enthusiastic"? Yes. But is it over the line into cultism, or unjustified given the prominence he achieved? I don't think so.

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THOU, who out of deep darkness didst first avail to raise a torch so clear, shedding light upon the true joys of life, ’tis thee I follow, bright star of the Greek race, and in thy deepset prints firmly now I plant my footsteps, not in eager emulation, but rather because for love I long to copy thee; for how could a swallow rival swans, or what might kids with trembling limbs accomplish in a race to compare with the stout strength of a horse? Thou art our father, thou discoverer of truth, thou dost vouchsafe to us a father’s precepts, and from thy pages, our hero, even as bees in flowery glades sip every plant, we in like manner browse on all thy sayings of gold, yea, of gold, and always most worthy of life for evermore.

Seems like one of the sections somewhere makes the point that Epicurus' fame had spread much wider after his death than when he was alive. Maybe I am thinking of this from Book 6, or just of another translation that says it differently (this is Bailey):

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IN time gone by Athens, of glorious name, first spread among struggling mortals the fruits that bear corn, and fashioned life afresh, and enacted laws; she, too, first gave sweet solace for life, when she gave birth to the man gifted with the great mind, who once poured forth all wisdom from his truthful lips; yea, even when his light was quenched, thanks to his divine discoveries his glory, noised abroad of old, is now lifted to the sky.

Quote from Kalosyni

The sweetest of pleasures bring no regrets.

Kalosyni are you quoting someone or suggesting that as a conclusion?

As an assertion it is almost poetic, but I suppose it is also the issue under discussion so I would not say it is self evidently true. Would you?

I can probably suggest all sorts of pleasures that are extremely pleasurable but obtainable only at the cost of some pain, some of which pain might prove to be unnecessary had I worked more intelligently so I might regret that error in working for the pleasure. Does that regret make that pleasure not among "the sweetest?"

I am mainly wondering if that sentence is primarily good poetry or whether philosophically Epicurus might endorse it as fully true.

OK later today I will send a link to those who respond affirmatively to this thread. Might be just before 830 pm eastern that I send the link, but it will come.

Very nice graphic! What is the food?

Smoothiekiwi in addition to what Don wrote above, part of the key is that the Epicurean worldview is not simply a lifestyle choice or a self-improvement technique that people pick up and put down like a diet or an exercise program.

It is an assertion about "the way things are" that takes positions on the nature of human life and the universe that Epicurus asserts to be true regardless of whether an individual chooses to believe it or not.

So someone who learns about what Epicurus taught adds to their knowledge regardless of whether they ever convince many others of its truth, or whether they have time to engage in as many pleasures as they might like. While it is nice to see numbers increase and more people share the view and add to the number of our friends, a large part of the benefit of the philosophy comes no matter how many or how few people accept it.

For example, as explained at the start of Epicurus Book Two:

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SWEET it is, when on the great sea the winds are buffeting the waters, to gaze from the land on another’s great struggles; not because it is pleasure or joy that any one should be distressed, but because it is sweet to perceive from what misfortune you yourself are free. Sweet is it too, to behold great contests of war in full array over the plains, when you have no part in the danger. But nothing is more gladdening than to dwell in the calm high places, firmly embattled on the heights by the teaching of the wise, whence you can look down on others, and see them wandering hither and thither, going astray as they seek the way of life, in strife matching their wits or rival claims of birth, struggling night and day by surpassing effort to rise up to the height of power and gain possession of the world.

This might seem sort of unkind, but as explained the emphasis is on the relief from pain that you yourself would be otherwise suffering.