Posts by Cassius

  • "A Few Days In Athens" Zoom Book Club Meeting #4: Continue Chapter Three And Commemorate 20th (Feb 20 - 8:00 PM EST) (Sun, Feb 20th 2022, 8:00 pm-9:00 pm)

    Cassius started a new event:

    Event

    "A Few Days In Athens" Zoom Book Club Meeting #4: Continue Chapter Three And Commenorate 20th (Feb 20 - 8:00 PM EST)

    "A Few Days In Athens" Zoom Book Club Meeting #4: Complete Chapter Three and Commemorate 20th (Feb 20 - 8:00 PM EST)

    This will be the fourth session on "A Few Days In Athens."

    The rough agenda for our one hour session is:

    1 - Twenty Minute or so overview of Frances Wright, the Introduction, and Chapter Two by led Cassius and any other volunteer regular forum participants who have read the whole book.

    2 - Brief introduction of everyone on the call. (We will go around the zoom list and ask everyone…
    Sun, Feb 20th 2022, 8:00 pm – 9:00 pm
    Cassius
    February 11, 2022 at 7:53 PM

  • Episode One Hundred Nine - The Epicurean View of Friendship

    Welcome to Episode One Hundred Nine of Lucretius Today.

    This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world.

    I am your host Cassius, and together with our panelists from the EpicureanFriends.com forum, we'll walk you through the six books of Lucretius' poem, and we'll discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. We encourage you to study Epicurus for yourself, and we suggest the best place to start is the book "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Canadian professor Norman DeWitt.

    If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where you will find a discussion thread for each of our podcast episodes and many other topics.

    At this point in our podcast we have completed our first line-by-line review of the poem, and we have turned to the presentation of Epicurean ethics found in Cicero's On Ends. We have now completed a long but important section stressing the importance of the Epicurean emphasis on Epistemology and Natural Science, and today we turn to section 65 on Friendship, which will probably take us several sessions to complete.

    Now let's join Martin reading today's text:


    [65] XX. One topic remains, which is of prime importance for this discussion, that relating to friendship, which you declare will cease to exist, if pleasure be the supreme good, yet Epicurus makes this declaration concerning it, that of all the aids to happiness procured for us by wisdom, none is greater than friendship, none more fruitful, none more delightful. Nor in fact did he sanction this view by his language alone, but much more by his life and actions and character. And the greatness of friendship is made evident by the imaginary stories of the ancients, in which, numerous and diversified as they are, and reaching back to extreme antiquity, scarce three pairs of friends are mentioned, so that beginning with Theseus you end with Orestes. But in truth within the limits of a single school, and that restricted in numbers, what great flocks of friends did Epicurus secure, and how great was that harmony of affection wherein they all agreed! And his example is followed by the Epicureans in our day also. But let us return to our theme; there is no need to speak of persons.

    [66] I see then that friendship has been discussed by our school in three ways. Some, denying that the pleasures which affect our friends are in themselves as desirable to us as those we desire for ourselves, a view which certain persons think shakes the foundation of friendship, still defend their position, and in my opinion easily escape from their difficulties. For they affirm that friendship, like the virtues of which we spoke already, cannot be dissociated from pleasure. Now since isolation and a life without friends abound in treacheries and alarms, reason herself advises us to procure friendships, by the acquisition of which the spirit is strengthened, and cannot then be severed from the hope of achieving pleasures.

    [67] And as enmity, spitefulness, scorn, are opposed to pleasures, so friendships are not only the truest promoters, but are actually efficient causes of pleasures, as well to a man's friends as to himself; and friends not only have the immediate enjoyment of these pleasures but are elate with hope as regards future and later times. Now because we can by no means apart from friendship preserve the agreeableness of life strong and unbroken, nor further can we maintain friendship itself unless we esteem our friends in the same degree as ourselves; on that account this principle is acted on in friendship, and so friendship is linked with pleasure. Truly we both rejoice at the joy of our friends as much as at our own joy, and we are equally pained by their vexations.

  • What Do You Take From The "Golden Mean" of Aristotle?

    Thank you! I think producing a table like that is very helpful for illustrating that all these are "labels" for which would have to have some way of measuring and identifying them precisely in order to use them.

    Lacking that, they all reduce - to me - to nothing more than "too much" "just right" and "too little" - isn't that a nursery story of some kind about some bears? https://americanliterature.com/childrens-stor…the-three-bears

    "And then she went to the porridge of the Little Wee Bear, and tasted it, and that was neither too hot nor too cold, but just right, and she liked it so well that she ate it all up, every bit!"

  • Episode One Hundred Eight - The Benefits of A Proper Understanding of the Senses and of Natural Science

    Quote from smoothiekiwi

    But, as far as I can judge, the Epicurean is simply an empirical sceptic, right

    In the way you mean it, probably yes, but in the way the standard dictionaries would apply that term, probably not. I am beginning to think there is never a safe way to use modern words to describe Epicurus other than just as "Epicurean" - or else use lots and lots of caveats every time.

    The particular danger here lies in going too far with observation - as it appears to me Frances Wright did - and concluding that no matter how much evidence you have you can never come to a "conclusion" that you can regard as confidently proven. We will be discussing that in detail in Wrights case later in the AFDIA book review and we might find occasion to discuss it in the Lucretius podcast again too.

    Wright's position on observationwhich I think deviates from Epicurus is set out in Chapter 15 of AFDIA.

  • What Do You Take From The "Golden Mean" of Aristotle?

    "Even so, I don't find any fault in the idea that the virtue is the balance between two excesses; probably Epicurus would've agreed to that. So why not pleasure as well?"

    I would say that this points out the problem and that Epicurus would not agree. Pleasure is a feeling that nature gives us as a canonical perception. We don't feel pain according to a set formula, and Aristotle is suggesting that there are extremes which can be identified prior to circumstances and experience, and these extremes give rise to the mean and therefore the optimum results. The problem is that these extremes are like Platonic ideals - they have no independent existence and to the extent we can estimate some kind of approximation, we do so based on the nature of the operation of the atoms and void involved, not on the basis of logical reasoning based on absolutes.

    Someone can probably do better than that in piercing the issue but I am very appreciative of Nate finding that reference.

    In all, I do think what we have here the difference between seeing virtue as something relative to the circumstances (the Epicurean perspective of identifying virtue by results that occur afterward), vs doing the reverse and trying to evaluate circumstances based on their adherence to some preset arbitrary standard of virtue that exists only in the human mind as a tool for prediction (the Atostotelian/Platonic perspective). Plato and Aristotle may look for their absolutes in different places, but in reality they are doing the same thing and Epicurus is in total opposition to both.

  • What Do You Take From The "Golden Mean" of Aristotle?

    Quote from smoothiekiwi

    Aristotle... wasn't that this position?

    Thats a good question that we will have to one day figure out. Do you have a reference that you were thinking of, or anything in particular?

    The only thing that I am aware of that may be applicable is that supposedly Aristotle transferred Plato's "ideas" from an external existence I may realm beyond the reach of the senses to an "intrinsic" or "essentialist" existence inside the object under consideration (things that appear yellow have an essence of yellow in them).

    But I could not provide you with a good cite to that either, so unfortunately I am not in position to clarify the question.

  • Sleep (To Be Retitled When I Think of A Better One - Note That I Am Posting This at 2:30 AM)

    Quote from Scott

    The particular article you referenced, and its author, are not however, a very good sources of information. The article is littered with many bits of accurate information and truths, but also... lots of unsupported assertions, interesting anecdotal evidence, conflations, stretched analogies, etc. Debunking all those would take gobs of time. However, the article does stir up thought and offers interesting insights. I'

    Yes you're definitely right. I didn't take the time to research him other than in the most cursory way, and so reading into the question really probably starts with the type article Don referenced combined with our own anecdote of personal experiences. I really considered the first part of the article (the only part I did more than "skim") as little more than an assertion of personal experience too.

    I think I've read enough already not to be anxious about getting the "one eight hour chunk" type of sleep.

    Like most people probably I have long been aware of the "siesta" in some cultures, but I've never followed up on that to see what that means for how long such people sleep at night.

  • Sleep (To Be Retitled When I Think of A Better One - Note That I Am Posting This at 2:30 AM)

    Yes I am for the moment discounting that he has any real science behind him and just entertaining how the general observation compares with my (our!) Own experience. But even more, the thought that there may be a parallel between (1) modern health issues in regard to sugar and (2) modern sleep conditions in fact being more supportive of sleep at least physically, strikes me as possible.

    I wish I could compare this to something in the Epicurean texts (probably Lucretius) but I am not able to think of anything on point, with the possible exception of the issue of "romantic love" or maybe more generally "wealth" to which we today may be more overstimulated then in the past.

  • Sleep (To Be Retitled When I Think of A Better One - Note That I Am Posting This at 2:30 AM)

    in the study of Epicurus we find ourselves with a fair share of people who are going through rough times in their lives, and one of the ways that rough times manifest themselves is in alteration of "normal" sleep patterns.

    A friend today sent me this article linked below, by someone who claims that we should re-examine just how much sleep is healthy. He argues that at times less sleep can correlate with a better - and not worse - frame of mind.

    I know nothing about the author of this article and his qualifications or views on any other subject, but the opening section caught my eye, and I wonder how it correlates with the views of others here. The challenging initial section that caught my eye was this:

    Quote

    Comfortable modern sleep is an unnatural superstimulus. Sleepiness, just like hunger, is normal.

    In this section, I make the following analogy:

    1. Experiencing hunger is normal and does not necessarily imply that you are not eating enough. Never being hungry means you are probably eating too much.
    2. Experiencing sleepiness is normal and does not necessarily imply that you are undersleeping. Never being sleepy means you are probably sleeping too much.

    Read the section and see what you think: https://guzey.com/theses-on-sleep/

    Most of us i think probably agree that oversleeping correlates with some form or degree of depression.

    So maybe occasionally being up at 2:30 AM, and being sleepy during the day, is not such a bad thing at all?

  • Is motivation to pursue pleasure the same as the motivation to remove pain?

    Quote from Kalosyni

    It's important to see that if one just launches into pursuing pleasure then there is a chance that is it just a temporary "band-aid"...although there could be a place for this in some situations.

    Yes I agree with this. Another reason is that of course we often choose pain for the larger-scale results, so even when we are in pain we might need to choose MORE pain (temporarily) to get out of the particular situation we are in.

  • Compassion in Epicurean Philosophy

    For me the subject of empathy always comes down to: The "empath" episode of Stat trek the original series is virtually unwatchable and the very worst of the episodes as far as I am concerned. It is also the only episode that, as soon as the episode selection becomes clear, requires changing the channel to something else.

    I've neve liked that weird French style of white face painting either. Pantomime - is that related to this topic?

    Sorry for the tangents there.....

    It is interesting how this subject is a lot trickier than first meets the eye.

  • Preconceptions and PD24

    Yikes. The main thing I get from that is that is going to pay to be cautious in taking positions on this topic.

    This calls to mind how DeWitt comments that Lucretius seems to contain very little information on this subject, but that may be because Diogenes Laertius is the muddy one.

    Maybe DeWitt is correct in pointing to the Velleius material as the best way to unwind the issues.

    Very complicated and unclear subject.

  • An Epicurean Understanding of Valentine's Day: Love, Romance, and Free-will

    In regard to what Kalosyni's comment on always looking for new restaurants being an indicator of marriage failure (kind of funny even to say that) here is what I remembered from Jefferson (Letter to Peter Carr - August 10 1787) Not the same thing, but probably related:

    Quote

    Traveling. This makes men wiser, but less happy. When men of sober age travel, they gather knowledge, which they may apply usefully for their country; but they are subject ever after to recollections mixed with regret; their affections are weakened by being extended over more objects; & they learn new habits which cannot be gratified when they return home. Young men, who travel, are exposed to all these inconveniences in a higher degree, to others still more serious, and do not acquire that wisdom for which a previous foundation is requisite, by repeated and just observations at home. The glare of pomp and pleasure is analogous to the motion of the blood; it absorbs all their affection and attention, they are torn from it as from the only good in this world, and return to their home as to a place of exile & condemnation. Their eyes are forever turned back to the object they have lost, & its recollection poisons the residue of their lives. Their first & most delicate passions are hackneyed on unworthy objects here, & they carry home the dregs, insufficient to make themselves or anybody else happy. Add to this, that a habit of idleness, an inability to apply themselves to business is acquired, & renders them useless to themselves & their country. These observations are founded in experience. There is no place where your pursuit of knowledge will be so little obstructed by foreign objects, as in your own country, nor any, wherein the virtues of the heart will be less exposed to be weakened. Be good, be learned, & be industrious, & you will not want the aid of traveling, to render you precious to your country, dear to your friends, happy within yourself. I repeat my advice, to take a great deal of exercise, & on foot. Health is the first requisite after morality. Write to me often, & be assured of the interest I take in your success, as well as the warmth of those sentiments of attachment with which I am, dear Peter, your affectionate friend.

Finding Things At EpicureanFriends.com

Here is a list of suggested search strategies:

  • Website Overview page - clickable links arrranged by cards.
  • Forum Main Page - list of forums and subforums arranged by topic. Threads are posted according to relevant topics. The "Uncategorized subforum" contains threads which do not fall into any existing topic (also contains older "unfiled" threads which will soon be moved).
  • Search Tool - icon is located on the top right of every page. Note that the search box asks you what section of the forum you'd like to search. If you don't know, select "Everywhere."
  • Search By Key Tags - curated to show frequently-searched topics.
  • Full Tag List - an alphabetical list of all tags.