Posts by Cassius

Welcome to Episode Nine-Four, a special episode of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who lived in the age of Julius Caesar and wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world.

I am your host Cassius, and together with our panelists from the EpicureanFriends.com forum, we'll walk you through the six books of Lucretius' poem, and discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. Be aware that none of us are professional philosophers, and everyone here is a a self-taught Epicurean. We encourage you to study Epicurus for yourself, and we suggest the best place to start is the book, "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Canadian professor Norman DeWitt.

Before we start with today's episode let me remind you of our three ground rules.

First: Our aim is to bring you an accurate presentation of classical Epicurean philosophy as the ancient Epicureans understood it, which is not necessarily the same as modern commentators interpret it.

Second: We won't be talking about modern political issues in this podcast. We call this approach "Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean." Epicurean philosophy is a philosophy of its own, it's not Stoicism, Humanism, Buddhism, Taoism, Atheism, or Marxism - it is unique and must be understood on its own, not in terms of any conventional modern morality.

Third: We will be talking about many details of Epicurean physics, but we'll always relate them to how they translate into the Epicurean conclusions about how best to live. Lucretius will show that Epicurus was not focused on luxury, like some people say, but neither did he teach minimalism, as other people say. Epicurus taught that feeling - pleasure and pain - are the guides that Nature gave us to live by, not gods, idealism, or virtue ethics. More than anything else, Epicurus taught that the universe is not supernatural in any way, and that means there's no life after death, and any happiness we'll ever have comes in THIS life, which is why it is so important not to waste time in confusion.

Remember that our home page is LucretiusToday.com, and there you can find a free copy of the version of the poem from which we are reading, and links to where you can discuss the poem between episodes at Epicureanfriends.com.

In this episode we will conclude our analysis of the poem as a whole and its significance.

We will start with a recap of: Notable Quotations and the Reception of Lucretius

Then after we cover its significance in general, we will do a brief recap of the topics covered in each of the six books and discuss how those relate to the overall goal of the poem:

1 - Bailey Outline Bailey - Short Analysis of the Poem.pdf

2 - Brown Outline Brown Outline From 1743 Edition.pdf

3 - Smith Outline MFS Outline From Hackett Edition.pdf

Oh gosh I am writing this at 4:00 am and just noticed in the thread that you have already read Haris' book!

Maybe it would help if you told us about particular areas of interest?

That's a very good question! I am not sure that there are any that strike me as satisfying on that score as well as DeWitt does on the background, but because I trust his consistency I would probably say Haris Dimitriadis' book as found at Epicurusphilosophy.com.

I would be curious at any comments from others in answer to this question.

I would also rank Catherine Wilson's books as better than many, although with her i.have to warn that (as with many others) there is a tendency to equate the writers moral/political views as those of Epicurus.

For that reason despite its emphasis on theory I think that someone who takes to heart the basic principles DeWitt discussed, and honestly sits back and asks "How would I be living today if I had been taught these things from childhood?" is far ahead of the game.

The standard suggestions you will read about "simple loving" and the like in other books can indeed be helpful, but the danger is that each if us have different circumstances, and too cookie-cutter an effort to implement them is not a good idea. On that score VS63 is always good to remember!

I think the true benefit of Epicurus is in helping you reprogram your mind on the ultimate issues of life, and once one does that the immediate practical decisions fall into place very naturally.

Welcome @Sito

This is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

Welcome to the forum!

Thank you for all that work Joshua!

I am sure that this "release candidate two" probably still has some bugs in it, but I am thinking the big ones (misspelling Martin's name in particular!) have been corrected, so I will likely post this to the Facebook group and perhaps other places later this week.

Episode Ninety-Two of Lucretius Today is now available!

Quote from Don

So, Cicero really didn't like Epicureanism even with Epicurean friends.

I don't have the time sequence of the different books down in my mind other than that apparently a good number of them were written near the end of his life when he had been forced into retirement by the civil war and was not a happy camper. I also understand that the death of his daughter in this period (or nearby) further darkened his outlook. But it seems like more than anything else the recurring theme is that Cicero was a politician interested in the health of the state above all, and he didn't have the creativity to see how an expansive reading of "pleasure" could be made to be consistent with his goal of citizenship.

Quote from Don

– two expressions that are never attested in Epicurus’ Key Docrines, but only in later sources – does not amount to anything like a general a priori rule.

Yes indeed you can hear me cheering him on there....

And post number 5 above in general - the extended excerpt - is just outstanding. That's what I am referring to as the lead that Cicero could have used to thread together Epicurean views and the requirements of good citizenship - but he chose not to go that route and instead ended up with his head detached from his body without really putting up a fight, unlike Atticus who maintained friendly relations with both sides or Cassius who at least put up a strong fight before he exited the stage of his own volition.

I am in the middle of editing this week's episode and one of Don's comments immediately made me think of this song -- here in a form which makes me feel even older!

Release Candidate Two:

Thanks Martin! Revised version coming up in maybe an hour.

I see this first edition has annoying flashes between several of the initial slides. I will fix that and reupload.

Ok before I start circulating this link to the world and only afterwards find some fatal flaw, please have a look at Release Candidate One of the Propositional Logic video featuring Martin's presentation from September 20, 2021.

The formal presentation begins at 4:20. If you would like to skip the formal part and go straight to the conclusion and the panel discussion, skip to 44:00.

(See below for Release Candidate Two)

Ha as you know I use capitals a lot as a shorthand for bold rather than to imply shouting. This software though has a very easy way to do both bold and italics and I need to break that habit myself!

I don't think any of us are all that far apart, but I need to take a break before responding further to edit the latest podcast, and to get the video of Martin's presentation on propositional logic finalized, so I will use that break to reformulate my thoughts and return here as soon as I can.

Quote from Godfrey

Returning to my obsession with pleasure v desire,

Godfrey the thread is getting long and I don't remember - did you suggest a definition of those two words. I remember I think that Don did but I am not sure I remember yours.

Quote from Godfrey

I realize though that there are two agendas here: living the philosophy and promoting/defending the philosophy.

Yes, that's legitimate.

But in other words, Godfrey, you're refusing to argue with Cicero that you're not a cow?

As usual our opponent is Cicero, but also as usual he does us the favor of both preserving Epicurean texts and pointing out for us the salvos we must deflect and return fire against.

From Book 6:

Quote

He therefore cleansed men’s breasts with truth-telling precepts and fixed a limit to lust and fear and explained what was the chief good which we all strive to reach, and pointed out the road along which by a short cross-track we might arrive at it in a straightforward course; he showed too what evils existed in mortal affairs throughout, rising up and manifoldly flying about by a natural –call it chance or force, because nature had so brought it about – and from what gates you must sally out duly to encounter each; and he proved that mankind mostly without cause arouse in their breast the melancholy tumbling billows of cares.

We cross posted -- much of the answer to your question is in the "animality objection" in post 82 above.

Quote from Don

I thought the "All pleasure is good" precluded the ranking of pleasure.

That would be correct if we considered all pleasure is good" to mean "all pleasure is THE highest good" but it is by no means clear (at least to me) that Epicurus was considering "good" here in that absolute sense, rather than in the relative sense in which there are many goods, some better than others. That's the reason for the SUMMUM in the "summum bonum" I think.

Another way of stating the question is that if he had been consistent, as soon as Epicurus formulated his philosophy he should have retired to his cave and lived a subsistence existence totally apart from the crowd. But he did not -- he lived a life of relative material luxury and devoted much of his time to philosophical controversy. Why - one naturally would ask? And I think the answer has to be in part that he valued the pleasures that he chose to pursue more highly - much more highly - than the pleasures he would have achieved had he retired to the cave on bread and water.

He chose - not the life of a cow - but the life of a supreme philosophical warrior and veritable "savior" of mankind!

And I would say that what seems like the obvious answer to me is that he chose the pleasures derived from the life of philosophical study and writing and controversy as much more pleasant to him than the life of "grazing in the grass."

Our target, here, I think - at the end of the day - will include that we have a cogent and potent response to criticism that Epicureans would limit our ambition in life to "grazing in the grass" -- otherwise known as the "animality objection" - from Cicero and Aristotle and of course others: