Posts by Cassius

Also this topic is pretty much parallel with what we have discussed in the past as an "Epicurus College" or other formats (meetup groups).

We can do much of the organizing for that online, but Kalosyni is right that we need to move as quickly as possible to "in person" frameworks.

What we do here on line will set the stage for that.

Yes I think it is inevitable that any basic presentation of Epicurean philosophy needs to cut right to the heart of the differences. I think in fact that that is exactly the approach Epicurus chose in the way the principal doctrines are organized. You can say that "Well he's just giving his position on the important things of life (gods, life after death, what is the true goal?) but he did so in a way that didn't feature his own conclusion as much as it gives the "vaccine" which makes the other viewpoints impossible. So to me he's starting out with controversy right at the beginning of his list , and that's consistent with the way all of his letters and much of the remaining texts are almost always seemingly engaged in combating errors.

Don thank you for all that work!

I have read through it once without finding much that would seem to be controversial from the point of view that we generally discuss here at the forum.

Do you see anything in it that stands out as remarkable and that needs more scrutiny?

Session Four of our book review stayed with Chapter Three, and so when we have the Youtube version of the discussion from last week posted - hopefully later today - it will be in this thread.

As I review and edit it, I want to comment that Scott raised some very challenging questions about pleasure at about the 18 minute mark. I think the discussion addressed most of it very well, but what Scott has done for us here is to articulately raise many issues that an intelligent person is going to raise about "pleasure" being at the center of the philosophy. That's one of the reasons we are doing this in a "book review" format, and these type questions can be expected to be raised by many people reading Chapter Three.

Next week we move on to another major point, but anyone who gets a chance to listen to this episode and think about Scott's questions, please be sure to add to this thread with your thoughts.

In the most general terms, we're grappling with the meaning and alternate definitions of what "pleasure" really means, and my own focus in responding to these questions is that the term "pleasure" must be construed to be extremely broad -- everything we find pleasurable in life (and I would assert that finding something "meaningful" is a subset of the category of pleasure. Given that broadness, there is no reason to back away from the word "pleasure" as the north star of life.

For example: Did Wright really have Epicurus say that virtue is pleasure? If that is what she meant, is that position correct according to Epicurus? One thing I have developed over the years is a healthy respect for Wright's opinion, and when she intends to deviate from Epicurus it's pretty clear what she is doing. Here she seems to be asserting that this is Epicurus' exact position.

Happy Birthday to Jasper Sky! Learn more about Jasper Sky and say happy birthday on Jasper Sky's timeline: Jasper Sky

If the article is really bad maybe I ought to add more of a warning in the original post. If someone thinks so let me know.

Quote from Charles

Love and I have had a reconsideration.

I hope you and Love come to terms soon!

I post this link not so much for the article itself, which I have not read, but due to the website at which it appears, which is not something I have seen before. This was posted in the EP Facebook group and may or may not be useful if you are looking for other research papers. Caveat emptor.

ALSO ANOTHER WARNING: As the thread has proceeded most of the comments about this article are negative. We do keep adverse articles up sometimes as a means of knowing what to react against, so I won't remove this at least at this point, but do be sure not to take it as unquestioned Epicurean material. Many academic articles are hostile to Epicurus and this one may be too.

Sci-Hub: removing barriers in the way of science

Here's a version by a rank beginner, twelve years ago:

An eight year old computer voice version, which is surprisingly clear:

We will definitely hark back to that version, and we can add any others that are newly generated. Thanks to youtube we can cue right to that point (48:30):

As I suggested at the end of Episode One Hundred Nine, I'm looking for some way to deliver some special zip to the reading of this week's text, since it is Torquatus' final shout-out to Epicurus and is particularly memorable. I promise that if anyone can produce a musical or singing or special spoken word edition of this text and can send us a media file that we will include it in the episode!

Note that the post above includes both the Reid and the Rackham translation, and either version works fine. In this case I don't see any major issues that make Reid superior, and the smoothness of Rackham's version may make it more memorable. We'll probably have Martin read one and Joshua the other, but there is room for more.

As for Rackham: "Philistines" -for example - may not have been the word that Torquatus used, but it carries a special weight in English today.

As for both: I never get tired of hearing how we should be embarrassed that we did not learn these things as children!

Welcome to Episode One Hundred Eleven of Lucretius Today.

This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world.

I am your host Cassius, and together with our panelists from the EpicureanFriends.com forum, we'll walk you through the six books of Lucretius' poem, and we'll discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. We encourage you to study Epicurus for yourself, and we suggest the best place to start is the book "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Canadian professor Norman DeWitt.

If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where you will find a discussion thread for each of our podcast episodes and many other topics.

At this point in our podcast we have completed our first line-by-line review of the poem, and we have turned to the presentation of Epicurean ethics found in Cicero's On Ends. Today we complete the section on Friendship.

Now let's join Martin reading today's text:

[71] XXI. Wherefore, if the doctrines I have stated are more dazzling and luminous than the sun itself, if they are draughts drawn from nature’s spring, if our whole argument establishes its credit entirely by an appeal to our senses, that is to say, to witnesses who are untainted and unblemished, if speechless babes and even dumb beasts almost cry out that with nature for our governor and guide there is no good fortune but pleasure, no adverse fortune but pain, and their verdict upon these matters is neither perverted nor tainted, are we not bound to entertain the greatest gratitude for the man who, lending his ear to this voice of nature, as I may call it, grasped it in so strong and serious a spirit that he guided all thoroughly sober-minded men into the track of a peaceful, quiet, restful, happy life? And though you think him ill-educated, the reason is that he held no education of any worth, but such as promoted the ordered life of happiness.

[72] Was he the man to spend his time in conning poets as I and Triarius do on your advice, when they afford no substantial benefit, and all the enjoyment they give is childish in kind, or was he the man to waste himself, like Plato, upon music, geometry, mathematics and astronomy, which not only start from false assumptions and so cannot be true, but if they were true would not aid us one whit towards living a more agreeable, that is a better life? Was he, I ask, the man to pursue those arts and thrust behind him the art of living, an art of such moment, so laborious too, and correspondingly rich in fruit? Epicurus then is not uneducated, but those persons are uninstructed who think that subjects which it is disgraceful to a boy not to have learned, are to be learned through life into old age!

Rackham Translation:

XXI. If then the doctrine I have set forth is clearer and more luminous than daylight itself; if it is derived entirely from Nature's source; if my whole discourse relies throughout for confirmation on the unbiased and unimpeachable evidence of the senses; if lisping infants, nay even dumb animals, prompted by Nature's teaching, almost find voice to proclaim that there is no welfare but pleasure, no hardship but pain—and their judgment in these matters is neither sophisticated nor biased—ought we not to feel the greatest gratitude to him who caught this utterance of Nature's voice, and grasped its import so firmly and so fully that he has guided all sane-minded men into the paths of peace and happiness, calmness and repose?

You are pleased to think him uneducated. The reason is that he refused to consider any education worth the name that did not help to school us in happiness. Was he to spend his time, as you encourage Triarius and me to do, in perusing poets, who give us nothing solid and useful, but merely childish amusement? Was he to occupy himself like Plato with music and geometry, arithmetic and astronomy, which starting from false premises cannot be true, and which moreover if they were true would contribute nothing to make our lives pleasanter and therefore better? Was he, I say, to study arts like these, and neglect the master art, so difficult and correspondingly so fruitful, the art of living?

No! Epicurus was not uneducated: the real philistines are those who ask us to go on studying till old age the subjects that we ought to be ashamed not to have learnt in boyhood.

Episode 110 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. In this week's episode we complete the discussion of the Epicurean View of Friendship:

Looks like editing is about to be complete so the discussion will be up soon.

Another point of note to which I give Joshua the credit is the analogy between Torquatus finishing his presentation with a "hard case" (that of friendship) with Lucretius finishing book six with another hard case (the plague of Athens and so many people dying.

The reason I post this is that if there is any merit in that analogy (and I think there is) then what we have in next week's episode - Torquatus' closing and climactic summary of the merit of Epicurus - is what book six and or the poem as a whole SHOULD HAVE included at the end as a summary.

So the next time someone complains about the ending of Lucretius, I intend to point them to this ending of Torquatus for the final summary.

But that's NEXT week.

Yes until further notice our public Zoom meetings to which all our regular participants here are invited are:

(1) Every Wednesday night a status conference / open discussion of anything on anyone's mind about the forum.

(2) Every Sunday night a session of the "A Few Days In Athens" book review

(3) Every twentieth of the month, no matter what day of the week it arises on, our Twentieth Zoom Commemoration. If the twentieth occurs on a Wednesday, or on a Sunday, we will combine the Twentieth Commemoration with the other event.

I say "all our regular participants are invited" only because it would be courteous if anyone who wants to join for the first time would let us know on the forum that they plan to attend, because when someone new attends we want to greet them properly and it would be helpful to know a little about them first.

I am in the editing phase and may make a couple of comments about this episode:

Probably around the 25 minute mark Joshua brings up the "Peace and Safety" phrase and we discuss for a few moments: "Is safety a pleasure or a tool for pleasure?"

Sometimes it seems like we are splitting hairs on words and sometimes these distinctions seem important. Probably the uncertainty as to which of the two it is (splitting hairs or important) is something that we could resolve if we thought it through (?)

In order to space out our meetings a little better, the Tuesday status meetings we have held recently are being moved to Wednesday at 8:00 PM eastern. Please check the calendar for events as we will keep that updated. Thanks!

FWIW I do know Hiram has a copy of Les Epicureans.

When he wrote about them in the past it seemed to me that it wasn't easy to assess the reliability of the fragments (maybe snippets is a good word) so I will be pleased to hear your assessment of how much we can glean from them.

Nate I am not aware of any. However I am also not sure that we have an "inventory" of the busts that are contained in the Vatican and Naples museums. It seems I recall seeing a row of busts that some of the Greeks have mentioned contain more than just Epicurus and Metrodorus and Hermarchus, but I am not sure who the others are. Do you know the line-up or shelf I am talking about? I can't find a picture of it right now but I seem to remember a picture showing two rows of busts displayed on two shelves. I am thinking it is a picture from a Vatican museum but it could be Naples.

You know the person we may want to ask about this (before we go back to our Greek contacts) is michelepinto

Michele, do you know the full list of busts that are associated with the Epicureans at the Vatican Museum and at Naples?

It's my impression that those collections are better than the ones in Greece.