Posts by Cassius

Locations to Important points in text - Fowler:

Kinds of Pleasure: "For I think Socrates is asking us whether there are or are not kinds of pleasure, how many kinds there are, what their nature is, and the same of wisdom." https://archive.org/details/b2900049x_0008/page/229/mode/1up

Is the Nature of the good perfect or imperfect, sufficient or insufficient? soc. Is the nature of the good necessarily perfect or imperfect ? pro. The most perfect of all things, surely, Socrates. soc. Well, and is the good sufficient ?

pro. Of course ; so that it surpasses all other things in sufficiency. https://archive.org/details/b2900049x_0008/page/233/mode/1up

The good cannot have need of anything else. soc. Let there be no wisdom in the life of pleasure and no pleasure in the life of wisdom. For if either of them is the good, it cannot have need of anything else, and if either be found to need anything, we can no longer regard it as our true good. https://archive.org/details/b2900049x_0008/page/235/mode/1up

The Limits Argument:

Consider the hotter and the colder, is there any limit in them? soc. Consider then. What I ask you to consider is difficult and debatable ; but consider it all the same. In the first place, take hotter and colder and see whether you can conceive any limit of them, or whether the more and less which dwell in their very nature do not, so long as they continue to dwell therein, preclude the possibility of any end ; for if there were any end of them, the more and less would themselves be ended. https://archive.org/details/b2900049x_0008/page/245/mode/1up

Socrates suggests that a goddess higher than pleasure established law and order, which has a limit, to restrain pleasure, which does not have a limit:. soc. There are countless other things which I pass over, such as health, beauty, and strength of the body and the many glorious beauties of the soul. For this goddess , 1 my fair Philebus, beholding the violence and universal wickedness which prevailed, since there was no limit of pleasures or of indulgence in them, established law and order, which contain a limit. You say she did harm ; I say, on the contrary, she brought salvation. https://archive.org/details/b2900049x_0008/page/253/mode/1up

Have pleasure and pain a limit? (27e) Soc. Have pleasure and pain a limit, or are they among the things which admit of more and less phi. Yes, they are among those which admit of the more, Socrates ; for pleasure would not be absolute good if it were not infinite in number and degree. soc. Nor would pain, Philebus, be absolute evil ; so it is not the infinite which supplies any element of good in pleasure ; we must look for something else. Well, I grant you that pleasure and pain are in the class of the infinite ; but to which of the aforesaid classes, Protarchus and Philebus, can we now without irreverence assign wisdom, knowledge, and mind ? I think we must find the right answer to this question, for our danger is great if we fail. https://archive.org/details/b2900049x_0008/page/259/mode/1up    Perseus Link

I will come back here and post a link to where Philebus may be found on the tufts.perseus site, but for now I want to link to what might be the best and most definitive free public domain edition: that by Jowett. This edition has extensive introduction and notes which I have not read, but in linking to pages and line numbers this might be the best way to link to sections of the text on the internet.

Let me be clear: Philebus is very difficult to follow, and I don't claim to have figured it out. It seems clear that there are points which are directly related to Epicurus, such as a very clear question about whether pleasure and pain have a limit. Socrates is very clear that he thinks pleasure does not have a limit, and it seems clear that Socrates things that Pleasure is disqualified from being "The good' for that reason, but Socrates combines this argument with other complicated arguments that seem to hinge on the nature of numbers, and i really don't understand where he is ultimately going with those: something to the effect that wisdom is the most important thing to have, apparently.

Here is the main archive.org page for Jowett : https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0004 and for Fowler: https://archive.org/details/b2900049x_0008 and the main Peresus page: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…3Atext%3DPhileb.

The start of the section on Philebus in the Jowett edition (extensive introduction and commentary): https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0004/page/518/mode/2up

The start of the dialog itself: https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0004/page/574/mode/2up

Start of the "Limit" discussion - page 593 of the Jowett text: https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0004/page/593/mode/1up This is according to Perseus section 27e.

I intend to do more work on the "limit of pleasure" argument that is found here, and this is the place where I plan to provide page and line number links. (To be clear, I have now changed my mind and will link mostly to the Fowler pages, since that is what Perseus uses and probably therefore is easier to search. We can use Jowett as needed for comparison, because Philebus is a very complicated argument.)

"Good luck" with your circumstances Alex. I am sure most of deal with varying degrees of serious problems and yes reading Epicurus is a refuge from the storms and gives hope and grounding to weather them.

Welcome JMK1100 !

This is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

Welcome to the forum!

Well he just started a thread saying that Epicurus' birthday is MONDAY, right, so that settles it for us doesn't it? Maybe we should lock the thread and declare January 10 the final answer?

Thank you for those notes Joshua!!! For all that work the "trophy" icon is just not enough.

Probably there is some discussion in Plato and/or Aristotle relevant to this but if so I am not aware of it. This does not seem to me to be the same as the "purity" issue which to me is related to the "limit" issue.

I sense that Godfrey's suggestion that the bottom line is the pleasures are similar (all are feelings) but cannot be ranked absolutely (as there is no objective standard) but there likely was some existing contention that he was bouncing off of by constructing the discussion in this way.

Don so what do you conclude to be the closest modern calendar equivalent?

I am happy to say that we spent the *entirety* of today's show addressing @smoothiekiwi 's questions on arrogance and cultism, and I think we'll conclude eventually that this was one of our better episodes. I'll get it published asap but it's a long one so will be a couple of days.

This event makes an obvious point: we really ought to look over the list of FAQs, clean them up, and consider devoting a podcast to going through each one.

Martin is suggesting that we just try to develop the closest approximation to our current calendar and forget the moon issue.

Is that possible?

Quote from Godfrey

he must have been familiar with the Platonic/Aristotlean exercise of ranking pleasures.

Godfrey of course you would expect that we would ask for a reference for those exercises!

Here is a post from Holly at Facebook earlier this week. It is so frustrating that this is so hard to do:

"I have been following this FB group, and they calculate today as being 5 Gamelion, so the 7th would be Sunday."
https://www.facebook.com/PrayerstotheGodsofHellas

Quote from smoothiekiwi

- it was probably his decision and his individual valuation of pain/pleasure)

Right. I think that's the answer right there.

Quote from smoothiekiwi

, because the pleasure you gain from teaching doesn't justify the pain of having fear to be wounded and hated

And there's the problem that caused the question - likely some pains so clearly outweigh the pleasures involved that we can be confident in predicting what most everyone would choose, but we generally need to go slow in making that judgement for other people because circumstances can be very complex or just unknown to us, and how people calculate their pleasures and pains varies widely.

Reasonable. But I would suggest that if this continues to be a concern for you after you read further that you bring it up again later so we can be sure to discuss the subtlties of what you still consider later on to be "cultism." I think those concerns are likely to go away on their own but if they don't by all means let's discuss them further.

Quote from Godfrey

Is this a convoluted way of saying that pleasures differ from one another, but that you can't rank them?

That is a very tempting thought Godfrey that deserves some close consideration.

I can't help but think that this question of "ranking pleasures" must have occurred to Epicurus too, and thus would have found its way into the principal Doctrines.

So:

1. Is Godfrey's suggestion correct?

2. What is accomplished by stating this in so convoluted a form? Because I would assert Epicurus must have had a reason for everything he did, especially in writing the Principal Doctrines the way they are.

I think our discussion is what it ultimately comes down to, and the way to temper the shock value is to emphasize the vast scope of the terms pleasure and pain. Our concerns for our fellow men and art and science and all that fall under pleasure and pain too. We take pleasure generally both in knowledge and in being kind and compassionate to others, and we generally take pain in the pain of others. It's simply a matter of being clear eyed that these traits are not universally the same, and if anyone is going to prevent violation of these "norms of feeling" it has to be us humans and not supernatural gods or universal forms, which don't exist.

And that if we're going to do any of that to support a worldview based on pleasure and pain, we'd better not waste time because life is short and there are no second chances.

I see that perspective as both liberating and as radically motivating as any religious or academic wishful thinking could ever be.

"The goal of life is pleasure; one of the tools we use to get to that goal is practical wisdom using reason to make our choices and rejections."

I think that is exactly correct from our point of view.

Of course to really stick it to the Stoics et al. and cut off their retreat, it would be good to make clear that "reason" in that formulation does not mean some absolute standard, but in ethics (which is what we are talking about) the only considerations in the balance are pleasure and pain. Otherwise they will look to that "reason" word to inject all sorts of other considerations.

Which is not to say that reason is not important but that it is subservient to pleasure and not an independent goal.

Maybe something that is unstated, like being alive.

We wouldn't say the living pursuit of pleasure even though being alive is a prerequisite.

"I would offer the "rational calculus of pleasure" or "wise calculus of pleasure" i.e., phronēsis in the pursuit of pleasure"

The wording needs to be extremely precise so as not to imply that some intrinsic good is needed in addition to pleasure or else Plato will hang you from the nearest tree as he did Philebus.

And this is likely also the reason why "reason" is not part of the canon of truth.

And why Epicurus himself did not state the goal of life as "reasoned pursuit of pleasure."

In thinking about that wording the question has not occurred to me:. Does "hedonism" as a term consider pain?

That's why I don't like to use the term because I don't think there is any "authority" that can answer that question as to what "hedonism" means.

Epicurus doesn't seem to have used a term like that so I suspect we should stay away from it too.