Posts by Cassius

Elli that would be great! Please tell him to visit this link:

Post

RE: Epicurus' Birthday 2023 - (The Most Comprehensive Picture Yet!)

Hello to all epicurean friends,

I was late to answer at this thread and on the issue, as has been studied and written by our friend @Don , and discussed with the rest of us, because I had a private communication with a greek person named Orestis Pylarinos who keeps everyday and with responsibility the ancient Athenian Calendar with the customs and celebrations of ancient greeks.

Orestis Pylarinos is a mathematician, he speaks both the greek and english language, as he has studied in the US…

Elli

December 16, 2022 at 12:06 PM

When he does he will see the REGISTER button on the right side of the screen (or the top if he is on a telephone)

At present we let everyone register regardless of their personal philosophy, and if you will just ask him to identify himself in a post as being your friend, we will make sure that he is well taken care of.

Thank you and let me know if I need to do more to help get him in!

No worries. You are right that a conversation has to "flow." At the same time, sometimes the flow can be so fast an even unexpected that we don't end up covering some of the main points that need to be covered. I am particularly thinking of myself and how I would like to zero right in on what I consider to be controversial issues after years of reading. As satisfying as that might be to me, it will make no sense to a general listener, and for the sake of accomplishing as much as possible as fast as possible and in a limited time, I need some guard rails to make sure that we connect with the widest reasonable listenership.

I am thinking part of the way we will address that issue will be for there to be several questioners and then maybe have follow ups to each answer, and then only when the conversation seems to ebb to flow on to the next question. A lot of any unevenness can be ironed out in editing.

Yes I agree and intend to do that, but unless we have a set list to have as a reference things can tend to get messy.

2022 has been a very good year for the EpicureanFriends forum, with many new participants and lots of good new content generated. As a new project for 2023, it appears that we have good reason to hope that we might be able to do a series of "interviews" of significant people involved in Epicurean philosophy. I am hopeful that we might in the future to be able to gain access to writers like Emily Austin, Haris Dimitriadis, and perhaps others like Catherine Wilson. In addition, it strikes me that we could probably produce interesting interviews with people like Elli Pensa, and Christos Yapijakis, and Michele Pinto, who have been involved in Epicurean activism in Greece and Italy. (Simply have the connection of saying "I live in Greece" or "I live in Italy" is interesting enough for me personally. )

Anyway to get the project going we need to talk about a few logistics, and the first one that comes to mind is that it would be good to develop a list of standard questions to ask each interviewee to be sure that we hit the most important points we want to bring out. In the case of the writers we want to help promote their books, but we also want to keep in mind the ultimate goal of "promoting Epicurean philosophy," so we will want to think about what questions interest us the most that we would like to ask anyone who is prominently associated with Epicurus. Here's an example of a consideration: While it might be most interesting to us to spend an hour discussing the controversies around katastematic pleasure, or Epicurean gods, or the nature of anticipations, we probably want to limit the time we spend on some of those in-depth questions so that the interview presents the most positive first impression possible to newer or relatively new listeners. We can always go back for a special session on some of the details later.

I will keep a master outline of questions here in this first post, and update it with suggestions, but please use the rest of this thread to suggest more, and we will keep this first post up to date as a master list. Thanks for your assistance!

(I am setting this up with just a few questions for examples and we'll greatly expand this as we go forward.)

1. Tell us about yourself? In what part of the world do you live and what do you do when you're not studying Epicurus?
2. How did you first become interested in Epicurean philosophy?
3. Before we get into some of the controversies that surround it, how would you yourself summarize what you think is most important about Epicurean philosophy?
4. What aspects of the philosophy are most significant to you personally?
5. To what extent do you think Epicurus' message is as valid today as 2300 years ago?
6. What made you decide to take your interest in Epicurean philosophy to the new level of writing a book about it?
   
7. It seems that today Stoicism is much more popular than Epicurean philosophy. What are the most important ways you see Epicureanism as different and superior to Stoicism?
8. What misunderstandings do you think exist as to Epicurean philosophy and which are the most important to clarify? For example, is Epicureanism ultimately ascetic? Was Epicurus anti-science, or anti-progress, or anti-culture? Did Epicurus teach suppression of all ambition? Did Epicurus teach that the way to live is to totally withdraw from society and live in a cave on bread and water and cheese?
9. Do you have any regular routines that you find helpful in applying Epicurean philosophy in your life?
10. Aside from reading your book , what suggestions would you give to people who want to learn more about Epicurus?

This article might also be relevant:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collegium_(ancient_Rome)

I wonder if I am just misremembering something, but it sure does seem like Epicurean momentum fell off a cliff around this time.

Quote

from hence I might infer that no heroic poem can be writ on the Epicurean principles,

Infuriating.

Thought not giving poetry at the time, Torquatus specifically refutes this in describing his ancestors, and even Cicero had to admit that the example of Cassius showed that there was much more vigor in Epicurean philosophy than Cicero had imagined.

[15.16] Cicero to Cassius [Rome, January, 45 B.C.]

3 But of this later on. I am only sounding you now to see in what spirit you take it. For if you are angry and annoyed, I shall have more to say, and shall insist upon your being reinstated in that school of philosophy, out of which you have been ousted "by violence and an armed force." In this formula the words "within this year" are not usually added; so even if it is now two or three years since, bewitched by the blandishments of Pleasure, you sent a notice of divorce to Virtue, I am free to act as I like. And yet to whom am I talking? To you, the most gallant gentleman in the world, who, ever since you set foot in the forum, have done nothing but what bears every mark of the most impressive distinction. Why, in that very school you have selected I apprehend there is more vitality than I should have supposed, if only because it has your approval. "

Started December 15, 2022

“That which produces a jubilation unsurpassed is the nature of good, if you apply your mind rightly and then stand firm and do not stroll about, prating meaninglessly about the good.” - Epicurus, as cited in Usener Fragment U423

From Anderson's collection of Usener material:

U423

Plutarch, That Epicurus actually makes a pleasant life impossible, 7, p. 1091A: Not only is the basis that they assume for the pleasurable life untrustworthy and insecure, it is quite trivial and paltry as well, inasmuch as their “thing delighted” – their good – is an escape from ills, and they say that they can conceive of no other, and indeed that our nature has no place at all in which to put its good except the place left when its evil is expelled. … Epicurus too makes a similar statement to the effect that the good is a thing that arises out of your very escape from evil and from your memory and reflection and gratitude that this has happened to you. His words are these: “That which produces a jubilation unsurpassed is the nature of good, if you apply your mind rightly and then stand firm and do not stroll about {a jibe at the Peripatetics}, prating meaninglessly about the good.”

Ibid., 8, p. 1091E: Thus Epicurus, and Metrodorus too, suppose {that the middle is the summit and the end} when they take the position that escape from ill is the reality and upper limit of the good.

I just discovered that I'm not as late in talking about this as I thought. It appears that Haris has just recently updated the book on Amazon, and I am finding that when I try to read it they still have the old version rather than the second edition.

I have messaged Haris about this and he tells me he is working on it -- -I will update here when fixed.

Shamelessly cutting and pasting a post that Joshua just made, here is his quote from the fallen Horace:

"Once I wandered, an expert in crazy wisdom, a scant and infrequent adorer of gods, now I’m forced to set sail and return, to go back to the paths I abandoned. For Jupiter, Father of all of the gods, who generally splits the clouds with his lightning, flashing away, drove thundering horses, and his swift chariot, through the clear sky, till the dull earth, and the wandering rivers, and Styx, and dread Taenarus’ hateful headland, and Atlas’s mountain-summits shook. The god has the power to replace the highest with the lowest, bring down the famous, and raise the obscure to the heights. And greedy Fortune with her shrill whirring, carries away the crown and delights in setting it, there."

--Horace, Ode 1.34, Translated by A. S. Kline

________________

This, this it is, O Memmius, to see through

The very nature of fire-fraught thunderbolt;

O this it is to mark by what blind force

It maketh each effect, and not, O not

To unwind Etrurian scrolls oracular,

Inquiring tokens of occult will of gods,

Even as to whence the flying flame hath come,

Or to which half of heaven it turns, or how

Through walled places it hath wound its way,

Or, after proving its dominion there,

How it hath speeded forth from thence amain,

Or what the thunderstroke portends of ill

From out high heaven. But if Jupiter

And other gods shake those refulgent vaults

With dread reverberations and hurl fire

Whither it pleases each, why smite they not

Mortals of reckless and revolting crimes,

That such may pant from a transpierced breast

Forth flames of the red levin- unto men

A drastic lesson?- why is rather he-

O he self-conscious of no foul offence-

Involved in flames, though innocent, and clasped

Up-caught in skiey whirlwind and in fire?

Nay, why, then, aim they at eternal wastes,

And spend themselves in vain?- perchance, even so

To exercise their arms and strengthen shoulders?

Why suffer they the Father's javelin

To be so blunted on the earth? And why

Doth he himself allow it, nor spare the same

Even for his enemies? O why most oft

Aims he at lofty places? Why behold we

Marks of his lightnings most on mountain tops?

Then for what reason shoots he at the sea?-

What sacrilege have waves and bulk of brine

And floating fields of foam been guilty of?

Besides, if 'tis his will that we beware

Against the lightning-stroke, why feareth he

To grant us power for to behold the shot?

And, contrariwise, if wills he to o'erwhelm us,

Quite off our guard, with fire, why thunders he

Off in yon quarter, so that we may shun?

Why rouseth he beforehand darkling air

And the far din and rumblings? And O how

Canst thou believe he shoots at one same time

Into diverse directions? Or darest thou

Contend that never hath it come to pass

That divers strokes have happened at one time?

But oft and often hath it come to pass,

And often still it must, that, even as showers

And rains o'er many regions fall, so too

Dart many thunderbolts at one same time.

Again, why never hurtles Jupiter

A bolt upon the lands nor pours abroad

Clap upon clap, when skies are cloudless all?

Or, say, doth he, so soon as ever the clouds

Have come thereunder, then into the same

Descend in person, and that from thence he may

Near-by decide upon the stroke of shaft?

And, lastly, why, with devastating bolt

Shakes he asunder holy shrines of gods

And his own thrones of splendour, and to-breaks

The well-wrought idols of divinities,

And robs of glory his own images

By wound of violence?

-Lucretius Book VI, transl. William Ellery Leonard

Welcome martyo26

Note: In order to minimize spam registrations, all new registrants must respond in this thread to this welcome message within 72 hours of its posting, or their account is subject to deletion. All that is required is a "Hello!" but of course we hope you will introduce yourself -- tell us a little about yourself and what prompted your interest in Epicureanism -- and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

Welcome to the forum!

Quote from Kalosyni

Would you define happiness differently now?

Ha probably I would define it differently every time I think about it

But surely the consciousness of the predominance of pleasure over pain, and not just in length of time, must be a major part of it.

Last night in our Zoom we discussed the apparent backsliding of Horace later in life from his earlier Epicurean views. Joshua talked about this in our most recent podcast and if I can find the quote he read then I will post it in this thread too.

As part of that discussed we mentioned but did not pursue that the environment after the defeat of Cassius and Brutus at Philippi was not favorable to the Epicureans.

I see in Haris Dimitriadis' preface to the second edition of his book he writes:

Quote

The development of Epicurean ethics: As far as Epicurus’s philosophy is concerned, we know that following the introduction of Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire, it was abolished by law, along with the other philosophical schools.

The "abolished by law" is what I have heard but have not researched. I thought I had read that Augustus closed all the schools, not just the Epicurean, and that would predate the Christian issue. Presumably this would have hurt all the schools, but if the Epicureans were "taking Italy by storm" as Cicero complained, then this would have been especially damaging to the Epicureans.

I don't have more to add at the moment other than to start this thread in hopes of future discussion about this point.

Another section of the updated preface worth highlighting:

Quote

A Comparison of Epicurean and Aristotelian Ethics

The root differences between the Epicurean views and those expressed by Aristotle concern the roles that reason and emotion play in decision-making and well-being. Epicurus, on the one hand, claims that the truth about happiness is revealed by nature because nature possesses the accumulated knowledge of existence.

Further, Epicurus asserts, human nature plainly shows that pleasure is the ultimate good in life, and the maximization of it is the purpose of one’s life. Aristotle, on the other hand, declares that the truth about happiness is revealed by one’s character and capacity for rational thinking.

Therefore, to be happy, one has to shape a virtuous character and excel in one’s capacity for reasoning. The virtuous character reveals the purpose and actions that would make one happy, and reason finds the most effective ways to serve the purpose and accomplish the associated actions. Pleasure and happiness, says Aristotle, are simply the natural consequence of succeeding in those actions.

Epicurus rejected this theory on the grounds that virtues are mental concepts that derive meaning through the definitions, interpretations, and practices society attaches to them. Taking into account that the beliefs and habits of society are mostly corrupt, it is evident that people’s desires and thoughts are likewise spoiled, with detrimental consequences to their well-being.

Haris' release of a second edition shows that he is interested in working to always improve. I am pretty sure that overall you'll agree with his approach.

Very interesting Martin, and continues to be an interesting topic. D.L thought it was an interesting enough detail to include in his biography, it's just a shame that he didn't make more clear what was thought of the significance of it.

This is so embarrassing -- to have Haris work available for years and not to have taken more advantage of it. To anyone so inclined - please help me fix that.

In case you haven't checked out his website in a while, Haris has two music videos and two presentation videos there:

Facbook version of the above post:

It has just come to my attention that Haris has released a second edition of his "Epicurus and the Pleasant Life." His detailed preface is available on his website here. The following is an excerpt:

Quote from Haris Dimitriadis

My deep confidence in the truthfulness of the Epicurean philosophy and, in particular, in its capacity to help modern people live a happy life, is the driving force that motivates me to do whatever is possible within my powers to make this largely unfamiliar philosophy accessible and meaningful to the general public. I have tried to objectively present the alternative views, both ancient and contemporary, so that the truth reveals itself transparently by the sheer comparison of the evidence.

Five years since the first publication of the book and fifteen years since my first encounter with the Epicurean philosophy, I feel that the circumstances are ripe now to go through the second edition. There are several reasons that nourish my desire to improve the quality of the first edition: my accumulated personal experience from the application of the philosophy in everyday life; my continuous research on the Epicurean philosophy over the years; and the feedback I received from an ample number of reviewers of the first edition.

All these reasons are powerful motives to present a comprehensive version of the Epicurean philosophy, shed light on the remaining dark areas, and lastly, address the reported weaknesses of the first edition.

I have been an appreciative fan of Haris for the many years that I have been in (unfortunately sporadic) communication with him over at Facebook. In fact we have at least one article from him featured here on Epicureanfriends:

Blog Article

"Challenging Ataraxia" - By Haris Dimitriadis

Haris Dimitriadis is author of “The Pleasant Life – The Philosophy of Epicurus.” Born in Greece, Haris studied Mathematics at the Aristotelian University of Thessaloniki as well as Economics at the London School of Economics. His career spanned the business and banking industries and has settled into retirement. Through climbing the corporate ladder he found it brought little peace of mind and turned his attention to the philosophy of Epicurus. Haris can be contacted through his website …

Cassius

May 15, 2020 at 1:54 PM

I think we have missed too long being more engaged with Haris and his work, and I'm going to try to work to remedy that in the coming months. With the recent release of Emily Austin's "Living for Pleasure," 2022 has turned into a landmark year for publication of accessible introductions to Epicurus.

For any of you who are so inclined I hope you will join me in looking over Haris' book and even more, let's try to engage with him more closely over the coming months and years. I am embarrassed to say that I am not sure whether Haris has an account here or not, but if he doesn't I will try to talk him into dropping in every so often.

Not sure who did this engraving, and it's not a good likeness, but I find the inscription interesting. What's it say? "Praised by some, Blamed by others"? And a reference to Horace? Sort of reminds me of Dewitt's opening paragraph - "At the very outset the reader should be prepared to think of him at one and the same time as the most revered and the most reviled of all founders of thought in the Graeco-Roman world."

This screen clip comes from Allposters.com - "Perfetti" (is that a reference to an artist or art type?)