Also as to voluptas, would not the most literal be "pleasure," as in Latin there is no more basic word for pleasure than voluptas, correct?
I recall that we have discussed that before and they delight sounds better to us, but for strict literalness "pleasure" would be more strictly plain?
I do think that we could pick some super important passages and make such a project both useful and manageable.
And a list of super important passages would be a great exercise in itself.
See, for example:
Just so I understand your message, would not Leonard and 1743 in line 1 get a "1" because they used "Rome" and not the literal "Aeneas" or "Aeneads"?
It is a great idea though, and it helps to post ideas, because at some point someone may have the time and resources to do it, or they think up a better way. So thanks for posting this!
Welcome to Episode 179 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where you will find a discussion thread for each of our podcast episodes and many other topics. We are now in the process of a series of podcasts intended to provide a general overview of Epicurean philosophy based on the organizational structure employed by Norman DeWitt in his book "Epicurus and His Philosophy." This week we continue our discussion of Chapter 13, entitled "The True Piety."
in support of there being a natural kind of anger, we have [indeed] replied that the sage will become angry."
May seem counter-intuitive to celebrate this statement, but I think this is very useful in reinforcing the statement in Diogenes Laertius just before 118 to the effect that "He [the wise man] will be more deeply moved by feelings, but this will not prove an obstacle to wisdom." Texts like this help separate the Epicurean school from those who overdose on calmness, tranquility, and imperturbability. I would expect Epicurus would be happy to leave those extremes to the Stoics or Buddhists and the like, and that Epicurus would endorse "appropriate" responsive feeling to most any situation. And I doubt I really need to hedge with the "most" in that sentence.
It has been pointed out to me that my "other than that Mrs. Lincoln how was the play" joke might be misunderstood. I used the smile icon, but I better be more clear:
And I do indeed see in looking it up places like here that it is now being given a different meaning than what I understood. This is absolutely NOT the meaning of the phrase as i have grown up understanding it:
"A sarcastic phrase meant to downplay the complaint or misfortune of another person, similar to playing the world's tiniest violin with one's fingers."
As I grew up understanding it, the phrase was meant to be a joke which emphasizes that something huge (usually bad) has been mentioned, and that everything else (such as "how was the play") pales in comparison to that big event. So it's actually an inverted expression of agreement in how bad the event referenced really was.
For example, the use here in reference to a particularly bad day on Wall Street with few redeeming good things happening: https://www.pensford.com/industry-news/…lay-mrs-lincoln
Or here, where it is said jokingly that "on top of that..." nuclear war would be a climate problem: https://www.mikesmithenterprisesblog.com/2022/03/other-…rs-lincoln.html
Or this, which references the phrase as a "droll understatement" - https://www.nickharvilllibraries.com/blog/-other-th…lay-mrs-lincoln
So in this case, "other than that Mrs. Lincoln how was the play?" was not a sarcastic reference to what was stated in the previous post, but an agreement that the issue of alienating friends and family can be so important that it would be tempting to say that any offsetting benefits would be minimal.
I hope no one misconstrued the reference! I did not intend to write so much about this but I am surprised to find the "sick" joke references on the internet which seem to change the meaning completely.
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Episode 178 of the podcast is now available!
I think that one of the worst things that can happen to someone is to arrive at the end of life and have to look back and regret that they did not use their best efforts to try to achieve the pleasures that could likely have been obtained at reasonable cost and with reasonable expectation of success. Lot's of good poetic lines that reinforce that sentiment.
You want to be able to say along with Vatican Saying 47 Bailey: “I have anticipated thee, Fortune, and entrenched myself against all thy secret attacks. And I will not give myself up as captive to thee or to any other circumstance; but when it is time for me to go, spitting contempt on life and on those who vainly cling to it, I will leave life crying aloud a glorious triumph-song that I have lived well.”
There aren't any guarantees of success when you try something, but 100% of the attempts you never make are going to fail.
That might be even better than "classical" Epicureans 
textbook or by-the-book!
Is any of the rest decipherable?
Editing of this week's podcast will hopefully be finished soon, but I thought this would be a good place to link some recent discussion we've had about religion and the gods to show how this topic remains very relevant to many people, including many of us here at EpicureanFriends:
only truly regrettable result of breaking away from religion for me has been that it alienates me somewhat from my family and almost everyone I grew up with.
.... Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? 
It seems to me that in most all cases it takes a special kind of person to be able to start this process, and even then it takes constant work thereafter.
But to me, it's worth it.
EDIT - Is has been pointed out to me that my "Other than that Mrs. Lincoln" joke might be misunderstood. See below post 37.
I need something to displace in my mind: "Quo usque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra?"
(From Cicero's first speech In Catilinam to the Roman Senate regarding the conspiracy of Catiline: Quo usque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra? ("For how much longer, Catiline, will you abuse our patience?").
I started with trying to memorize the part of Lucretius book 1 that starts "Humana ante oculos", but I haven't make it much past the first line.
I've also made some progress with Virgil's
Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas
Atque metus omnes, et inexorabile fatum
Subjecit pedibus, strepitumque Acherontis avari
That's a little deeper than I understood. I am familiar with "we are worms" and "undeserving of salvation" and so forth but not to the extent that *every* pleasure in *every* situation is wrong. I am familiar that Stoicism might be read in that way, but not really Catholicism. Maybe with Joshua's help we might want a full Catholicism thread.
I really can't escape Catholic guilt. I wish I could.
I presume I know what you mean but I am not Catholic so maybe there is more to it that would be worth describing (at least in general)?
OK yes we basically have a full subforum devoted to this, but might be good to add another specific thread:
Dealing With Anxiety And Depression
Here is a new specific thread which provides a keyword for the "overwhelmed" feeling, which probably isn't strictly the same as "anxiety" or "depression." This is the kind of thing we really need an "article" on :
So let's continue "Does the Philosophy Change You?" - which is a very good question - here in this existing thread. If anyone wants to pursue the "how to overcome feeling overwhelmed" aspect please post it at this link.
Don't we have a thread somewhere about what an Epicurean might do when they feel overwhelmed or depressed?
If we don't then we are about to, because we need an accessible list of practical advice.
You know this topic - the feeling of getting overwhelmed and falling back into "the norm" is a problem that deserves lots of attention.
Seems pretty clear that at the very least Epicurus was advising:
- "getting back to nature" or "studying nature" as a way to build confidence,
PD12. A man cannot dispel his fear about the most important matters if he does not know what is the nature of the universe, but suspects the truth of some mythical story. So that, without natural science, it is not possible to attain our pleasures unalloyed.
But also:
- surrounding yourself with like-minded friends who can help talk through and in other ways assist in bad times.
Lots of references to that:
PD27. Of all the things which wisdom acquires to produce the blessedness of the complete life, far the greatest is the possession of friendship.
PD28. The same knowledge that makes one confident that nothing dreadful is eternal or long-lasting also recognizes, in the face of these limited evils, the security afforded by friendship.
Seems as true today as ever that while we can do a lot "on our own" in terms of studying nature, in the end living the best life possible is a "team sport" that requires constant reinforcement both in ourselves and through friends.
Hopefully we can help a little with both here with this forum.
You know this topic - the feeling of getting overwhelmed and falling back into "the norm" is a problem that deserves lots of attention.
Seems pretty clear that at the very least Epicurus was advising:
- "getting back to nature" or "studying nature" as a way to build confidence,
PD12. A man cannot dispel his fear about the most important matters if he does not know what is the nature of the universe, but suspects the truth of some mythical story. So that, without natural science, it is not possible to attain our pleasures unalloyed.
But also:
- surrounding yourself with like-minded friends who can help talk through and in other ways assist in bad times.
Lots of references to that:
PD27. Of all the things which wisdom acquires to produce the blessedness of the complete life, far the greatest is the possession of friendship.
PD28. The same knowledge that makes one confident that nothing dreadful is eternal or long-lasting also recognizes, in the face of these limited evils, the security afforded by friendship.
Seems as true today as ever that while we can do a lot "on our own" in terms of studying nature, in the end living the best life possible is a "team sport" that requires constant reinforcement both in ourselves and through friends.
Hopefully we can help a little with both here with this forum.
Seems appropriate on the topic that it's a constant struggle -
Lucretius 6 / 43 (Munro)
[I have willed at the same time] to explain all the other things which mortals observe to go on upon earth and in heaven, when often they are in anxious suspense of mind, and which abase their souls with fear of the gods and weigh and press them down to earth, because ignorance of the causes constrains them to submit things to the empire of the gods and to make over to them the kingdom. For they who have been rightly taught that the gods lead a life without care, if nevertheless they wonder on what plan all things can be carried on, above all in regard to those things which are seen overhead in the ethereal borders, are borne back again into their old religious scruples and take unto themselves hard taskmasters, whom they poor wretches believe to be almighty, not knowing what can, what cannot be, in short on what principle each thing has its powers defined, its deep set boundary mark; and therefore they are led all the farther astray by blind reason.
[68] Now unless you drive from your mind with loathing all these things, and banish far from you all belief in things degrading to the gods and inconsistent with their peace, then often will the holy deities of the gods, having their majesty lessened by you, do you hurt; not that the supreme power of the gods can be so outraged that in their wrath they shall resolve to exact sharp vengeance, but because you will fancy to yourself that they, though they enjoy quiet and calm peace, do roll great billows of wrath; nor will you approach the sanctuaries of the gods with a calm breast, nor will you be able with tranquil peace of mind to take in those idols which are carried from their holy body into the minds of men as heralds of their divine form. And what kind of life follows after this, may be conceived.
