Posts by Cassius

I split off my comments (which were predominantly about the technology used for the comparison, and placed it HERE, along with the recent Linux discussion:

Thread

Jupyter Notebook (Used in Lucretius Comparison_

It looks like the full PDF of the paper is here:

https://github.com/haraldsDev/luc…-Comparison.pdf

Boy this guy is good -- writing it and uploading it to github for revisions. This is a great way to take advantage of technology to do things! TauPhi and Cleveland Okie It looks like he isn't really taking advantage of github for revisions, but this is the start of the way to publish a paper and then work on it collaboratively with extremely fine grained control over what revisions are…

Cassius

May 17, 2023 at 9:04 AM

As a subitem in THIS forum: Other Outreach / Technology / Educational Projects

After looking through the PDF this looks more like a "science project" to parse through particular words by computerized means and then compare them. I note that the six translations are listed only at the end of the document and even then by year and not by author.

No doubt there is some great stuff in here but it's not a general summary of the different translations for high-level comparison.

However the very fact of how he is approaching the project and the technology he is using may lead to some useful observations. We definitely need a better way to work collaboratively, and to process revisions in master documents, then purely using Google docs. Some combination of Jupiter / github might work for that.

I don't want to turn this into a technology thread, but if anyone has any knowledge of this maybe we need a separate thread on whether Jupyter is a desirable platform.

Interestingly, when I go to the Jupyter documentation, it appears they are using Mkdocs for their documentation just like I am using for the "Course Materials." Why aren't they using Jupyter itself?

It looks like the full PDF of the paper is here:

lucretius-translations-comparison/HMatulis-DH-Project-Course-Lucretius-Translations-Comparison.pdf at main · haraldsDev/lucretius-translations-comparison

DH Project course – Comparison of 6 English translations of Lucretius “De rerum natura” -…

github.com

Boy this guy is good -- writing it and uploading it to github for revisions. This is a great way to take advantage of technology to do things! TauPhi and Cleveland Okie It looks like he isn't really taking advantage of github for revisions, but this is the start of the way to publish a paper and then work on it collaboratively with extremely fine grained control over what revisions are accepted in to the main trunk of the paper.

I am not familiar with this project but it looks like he prepared it in this format --

Project Jupyter

The Jupyter Notebook is a web-based interactive computing platform. The notebook combines live code, equations, narrative text, visualizations, interactive…

jupyter.org

Those are good.

I have to admit also that I've been impressed with it since I first heard it - Rolfe Humphries' title "The Way Things Are"

Ha - I see that has a subtitle - "How To Thrive In A World Out Of Your Control." I know we all feel that way at times but I'd like to think that an Epicurean alternative book would have a very different "feel" to it. And it's also interesting that they chose not to include their "trademark word" - virtue.

The Emily Austin article you mentioned is a good reference for any Stoic and we need to highlight it more here.

That is a great suggestion and we talk about it frequently. Several of us are working on something similar but unfortunately nothing I am aware of is ready for production. But this is a goal that is very high on our list.

Aside from the forum posts you mentioned, I would also recommend the Lucretius podcast. We'll incorporate that in whatever written materials we come up with, but I think an important part of any curriculum is personal participation and discussion with other like-minded people, and the podcast can help simulate that until we have more programs available.

I expect us to want to track Lucretius very closely (at least in the big picture) as we do this. If you have not spent quality time with Lucretius I think finding a good annotated translation (the Martin F. Smith version for instance) would be a good idea. Lucretius was presenting to Memmius pretty much exactly what you are looking for - a step by step introduction to the philosophy.

And here is an important point: Lucretius' focus on the physics is a feature, not a bug. I think Lucretius starts and emphasizes exactly where the philosophy presentation needs to start, and he goes over these big picture in a logical order. Here's a summary I've been working on recently:

• Nature: Everything that exists has a physical basis, and there is nothing that is supernatural. Nothing can be created from nothing.
• Gods: No supernatural gods exist, but it is useful to remember that intelligent life with physical bodies exists elsewhere in the universe, and to think about and seek to emulate those which have achieved perfectly pleasurable lives without any pain.
• Death: The soul is physical like everything else and cannot exist without the body. There is no life after death, and therefore no punishment or reward after death.
• Anti-Determinism: Human life is neither fated nor determined by forces outside itself.
• Knowledge: The five senses, the feelings of pleasure and pain, and the pattern-recognition faculty of anticipations provide a reliable basis for knowledge.
• Pleasure: The feeling of pleasure is the guide to a life of pleasure which is the goal of human life. Pleasure is a wide term that includes everything mentally and physically desirable in life. In contrast, "virtue" is a label that describes not an end in itself but whatever is an effective tool for the obtaining of a life of pleasure.

Lucretius mentions pleasure throughout, and he incorporates it into the opening of the poem and the interesting starting points of each book, but he starts the deep discussions with the fundamentals of how nature works, how death is the end, how humans have free will, and how knowledge is based on the senses.

This sets the stage properly from the beginning, and when you establish these fundamentals - such as how short life is and yet how pleasure is the driving force of all life - it seems to me you are much less likely to fall into the trap of thinking that "running from pain" is the focus of what life should be all about.

Quote from Matteng

Do you know how the Epicuean attitude is for a general Philantropy/compassion /sympathy or let´s say "social feelings".

I am sure that many here will have good comments on this. The first thing that would come to my mind in laying the ground work for the discussion, however, would be to suggest that this question stated this way is essentially another form of the "virtue" question that is discussed at great length in the Epicurean texts. The qualities you are suggesting (and even friendship is included in this) are tested by the practical question of whether they in fact (and not in theory) lead to a more pleasant life for the individual who is asking the question. Maybe the best example of this is in the Torquatus narrative starting at least around line 32.

As in the Vatican Saying, our desire for the qualities you mention are subject to the same test: VS71. :Every desire must be confronted by this question: What will happen to me if the object of my desire is accomplished, and what if it is not?"

Now having said that, a very good case can be made in many instances for pleasure arising from pursuing the objectives you list, but if you cross the line into thinking that these objectives are worthy "in themselves" apart from the actual results they produce, then I would suggest Epicurus would say that analysis goes too far astray from the goal of real people pursuing pleasure in their own lives and - as with any other deviation from "pleasure" as the goal - would end up with results that undermine that goal.

Now with that as a fundamental you could go forward in many ways to show that in particular situations with particular people, the goals you mention can be in many ways pleasure-enhancing.

Yes I see the pugilist demeanor as well. I don't see it matching the other Hermarchus busts, but I could see the possibility that it is neither one of them.

Those wide eyes on the one we are discussing reminds of me this one, which the clip says is Theophrastus --

However when you click over to the page that apparently comes from, the head/hair shape is very different:

Theophrastus | Art UK

artuk.org

Quote from Godfrey

As for #12, the shape of the head seems wrong and he's way too stern to accord with the images of Epicurus that I'm used to seeing.

I agree that this is more stern than most, but I see this as consistent with his dominant presentation in the remaining busts. I would probably call it more "piercing" or "serious" than stern, but I think that's likely the way he was perceived -- as very SERIOUSLY pursing his philosophy.

For example this one, which is not one of the small ones from herculaneum but which makes him also look serious:

And look at the focused / concerned eyebrows here:

As for the deviant version - let me get this out of the way - I see the deviant version as THIS one which many commentators today like to use because the damage to the eyes and angle of head can be lighted in a way that makes him look like a stupified pot-head This is the one I see as - in its present form - out of character. If it were an attempt to make him smiling, I would say it's acceptable, but even before the eyebrow was damaged it appears to me to be more of a "blank" expression, which again would not be a good look for someone as acute as Epicurus.

Here is the book cover we are talking about (which appears to me to be Hermarchus based largely on the eyes)

Ha! My confusion increases

Is *that* the one on the book cover?

I would have said the book cover is clearly the one we all agree to be Hermarchus, which is not shown currently in this thread.

This one doesn't add anything except the page number from that old sketchbook --If I had to speculate I would say that this is a poor representation of the bust I just posted in post 12 above. Doesn't the posture seem more erect than in the ones we typically see, but still the face of Epicurus? And look at the furrows in the forehead which the sketcher tried to capture.

I am thinking that there exist several distinctively different busts of Epicurus that we have to be aware of to take into account, with this one being the least well used (but not at all the worst in the picture that is posted above in 12).

Referring back again to the clip in post 5 above --

I found another reference I came across long ago. Not sure I can find the URL for this, but take a look. This looks to me to be the one we are discussing, and it's identified here as a Epicurus (which seems to me what I would think too). I will see if I can find a URL or another reference.

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This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

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All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

Quote from TauPhi

A lot of these programs are terminal based but I prefer them to GUI programs because of their extensibility and speed.

Well that list shows how hard core you really are, and far advanced ahead of me.

I have heard of most of those and occasionally tried them, but I still use mostly GUI - based programs on an XFCE desktop.

I don't have the occasion to do so much anymore, but I used to like to show my friends how they could better use Linux than windows, so I still mostly use the GUIs and options that look mostly like Windows so I could work with my friends who will never go full terminal-based.

The one thing that I have not found in native linux is outlining programs, and I am a big outliner. The two I mentioned (logseq and obsidian) are electron apps - which I don't care for - but they work well. In addition to those I still daily use "Ecco Pro" which was abandoned in 1997 but still runs fine in linux/wine.

But I'll repeat here again: I think we have a significant use case in Epicurean philosophy for the use of outlines (which Epicurus pretty much recommends verbatim). I am trying to organize my public domain Epicurean materials into markdown files for use in either an obsidian or logseq database which we could let people download for free so as to get a head start on collecting the sources.

In the meantime, that's how I have made this website: https://epicuruscollege.com/coursematerial/

That's a series of markdown files organized through obsidian and then turned into a website with Mkdocs-Material, which is also a FOSS program for assembling documentation. I am also experimenting with Docusaurus, but I think the Mkdocs-Material system works a little better for turning the markdown files into a website.

Quote from Godfrey

do you use LibreOffice Draw for your highlighted and underlined text clips that you post? For your other posted graphics? I use other aspects of LibreOffice but haven't tried Draw.

Godfrey:

I have never really been able to settle on a paint/draw program or really get comfortable with a graphics editor. I occasionally try GIMP and Inkscape but never take the time to learn it properly. I have found Libreoffice draw to be an easy to use compromise on putting together graphics, but I keep looking for a major graphics program to really take the time to learn.

So as to Libreoffice I don't really use the text and spreadsheet much (I use the Softmaker Office linux programs instead for maximum Microsoft compatibility) but I do use the Libreoffice Draw regularly.

My screen shots with underlined text are done with Ksnip https://github.com/ksnip/ksnip

When I want to combine several screenshots or pictures into a larger picture, I take the screenshot with Ksnip and then I paste into Libreoffice draw where I move things around and then add annotations.

Thank you Martin!

Do we know who is referred to here as challenging the authorship?

pasted-from-clipboard.png

They can never resist accentuating the negative. I would say more like pigs as symbols of the uninhibited pursuit of pleasure and the unwllingness to bow to authority.