Posts by Cassius

cris.vedanta has already posted in the forum - here:

Post

RE: New Work of Historical Fiction With Epicurean Connections by Christian Luchini - "The Posillipo Enigma"

Thanks for this space, Cassius!

I am planning to write a series of books on "The Posillipo Enigma." You can find the first book here https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=ury9EAAAQBAJ and if you can't download it try through a free VPN app like My IP Hide. You will definitely succeed.

If you want to know about the historical scope of the book, I recommend reading this article of mine:

https://crono.news/Y:2023/M:05/D:…nista-virgilio/

If you have time and way I would love to receive your…

cris.vedanta

May 25, 2023 at 2:03 PM

Welcome cris.vedanta !

There is one last step to complete your registration:

All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).

You must post your response within 72 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion. All that is required is a "Hello!" but of course we hope you will introduce yourself -- tell us a little about yourself and what prompted your interest in Epicureanism -- and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

Here is a thread from facebook by Christiano Luchini, the author of this new work.

I haven't read this and can't yet comment on the content or any aspect of it, but I see Elli is reading it and I will report back on her comments.

Epicureanism, one of the most important philosophical currents of antiquity, spread to Rome during the first century B.C., thanks to the work of masters such as Lucretius and Philodemus of Gadara. However, Epicurean philosophy found its most suitable environment in Campania, a southern region of Italy, where the beauty of the Gulf of Naples attracted many intellectuals, artists and men of culture.

I wrote a historical thriller, in English, called "The Posillipo Enigma," set in Naples at the time of the Epicurean School of Naples. Virgil will have to investigate the death of the philosopher Sirone.

Thanks for the attention.

Greetings from Napoli, Italy.

Responses:

Elli:

"The Posillipo Εnigma". It sounds interesting!

The word "Enigma" comes from the greek word "Αίνιγμα" [Aenigma] and means something that is difficult to interpret, something that remains a mystery, uncertain, inexplicable, ambiguous, paradoxical, inscrutable. Something that is not obvious!
IMO the enigma has been solved! It is obvious, and it's given with the one word that is "Posillipo".
"Posillipo" comes from the greek word "Παυσίλυπον" [Pausílypon], that means "which that ceases sorrow/sadness". What ceases sorrow and sadness? Pleasure, of course, the greatest good!

Christiano:

Elli Pensa It is very interesting and passionate reflection, but it is not related to my book. Posillipo is first of all a beautiful hilly and scenic place in Naples, a wonderful city in southern Italy. It was named so by the Greeks precisely because of the beauty to contemplate that ceases all fears and sorrows.

Elli: Cristiano Luchini hello and joy

Yes, I' ve heard for this beautiful place in Naples with the name as Posillipo. However, as an epicurean I got into the point quickly to solve your Enigma. Epicureans like to solve the mysteries and enigmas and whatever is uncertain and foggy. Besides, for epicureans, behind any Enigma only one thing is the obvious: "atoms and the void"

Christiano:

Here is " The Posillipo Enigma." I am considering writing a series. In the meantime, I started with the first book.

https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=ury9EAAAQBAJ

Elli:

Cristiano Luchini In your prologue you wrote: "The school of Posillipo and its founder Sirone – a renowned epicurean philosopher - who meets a sudden and mysterious end, and his friend Virgil begins investigating the enigmatic villa and its secrets".

I will read your book of course, it seems interesting, but in the meantime, I would like to give another probability on who murdered Sirone, the Epicurean philosopher.
Well, the murderer was a furious idealist-platonist, like those furious idealists-platonists that chased after Epicurus in the island of Lesbos in the city of Mytilene. Epicurus with his teachings caused unrest to the platonists, so Epicurus run away from there, and before they lynched him.

Copying here a post of Elli on Facebook (where she helps keep the Epicurean Philosophy group alive while we work on more content here!)

Speaking of Philodemus always comes to my mind the city of Herculaneum in which Philodemus had lived, as well as the father in law of Ceasar that was Piso who was the same that had built the famous Villa of Papyri with that catastrophic eruption of the volcano Vesuvius that destroyed same city in Italy. And then three sayings comes to my mind the 30 & 31 & 47 that were written by Metrodorus.

30. Some men throughout their lives spend their time gathering together the means of life, for they do not see that the draught swallowed by all of us at birth is a draught of death.

Paraphrasing:
30. Some men throughout their lives spend their time gathering together the means of life (e.g. singing that famous song entitled "Funiculì funiculà" - hear at the youtube video) for they do not see that the draught swallowed by all of us at birth is a draught of death (e.g. what a silly decision is to build your villa next to Vesuvius).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH0TMmgPtjg

31. Against all else it is possible to provide security, but as against death all of us mortals alike dwell in an unfortified city.

Paraphrasing:

31. Against all else it is possible to provide security, but as against death all of us mortals alike dwell next to the mount of the volcano Vesuvius.

And in the end the ES 47 which says: I have anticipated thee, Fortune, and entrenched myself against all thy secret attacks. And I will not give myself up as captive to thee or to any other circumstance; but when it is time for me to go, spitting contempt on life and on those who vainly cling to it, I will leave life crying aloud a glorious triumph-song that I have lived well.

In the above ES 47 it is like hearing Metrodorus saying to Philodemus: Hey epicurean friend Philodemus, I have the impression that you did not anticipate on the issue of "Fortune" and you took many risks to give yourself captive against its secret attack that is for living in the city next to the volcano Vesuvius. But anyway, the eruption of Vesuvius preserved your Papyri on Epicurean philosophy that proves that you have lived well. That is to say the general picture is: in a catrastroph (death) of something, it is the creation (born) of a new one else.

And as the archeologists are digging and digging in Herculaneum the only thing they will discover is the New Man i.e. the hyperman by Epicurus and Nietzsche.

And here is a nice video about the life that was in Antiquity of Herculaneum. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zSN18Xk8jU&t=3505s

In this video there is a remarkable note: the same wine of ancient Romans that produced in Herculaneum and made them joyfull... in our days became as "the tears of Christ".

Episode 175 of the podcast is now available!

Like "location location location" in real estate!

It is kind of ironic! In many cases it makes sense to avoid politics, in many other cases it is essential to charge right in! In truth politics is just another example of exercising prudence to chose your actions wisely, and not a place for a flat prohibition any more than any other place in life!

Welcome AydenNewman !

There is one last step to complete your registration:

All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).

You must post your response within 72 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion. All that is required is a "Hello!" but of course we hope you will introduce yourself -- tell us a little about yourself and what prompted your interest in Epicureanism -- and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

Welcome RexWatts !

There is one last step to complete your registration:

All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).

You must post your response within 72 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion. All that is required is a "Hello!" but of course we hope you will introduce yourself -- tell us a little about yourself and what prompted your interest in Epicureanism -- and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

Quote from Pacatus

“Stop calculating, Boss,” Zorba continued. “Forget numbers, break those disgusting scales, close the grocer’s shop.”

Yes if VS71 was saying that in a "logical" / "calculating" way totally, then I think your concern would be valid. But Epicurus makes clear that the only criteria is pleasure and pain, and those are feelings, not widgets or numbers that can be absolutely quantified.

I would even say that that has to be kept in mind in considering the "natural and necessary" evaluation. Other than food, water, shelter, clothing, and a few other things, one's calculation of what is appropriate to pursue is going to be so contextual as to alleviate any concern of undue asceticism or rigidity.

If you approach things the right way, rather than thinking you are Plato plotting out the answer through geometry, or that logic will hand everyone the same answers, then you should have any concern that would spoil your martini!

Welcome to Episode 175 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where you will find a discussion thread for each of our podcast episodes and many other topics.

We are now in the process of a series of podcasts intended to provide a general overview of Epicurean philosophy based on the organizational structure employed by Norman DeWitt in his book "Epicurus and His Philosophy."

This week we continue our discussion of Chapter 12, entitled "The New Hedonism."

• The True Nature of Pleasure
  • Pleasure, he declares, is cognate and connate with us, and by this he means not only that the inter- connection between life and pleasure manifests itself simultaneously with birth and by actions that precede the capacity to choose and understand; he means also that pleasure is of one nature with normal life, an ingredient or component of it. and not an appendage that may be attached and detached; it is a normal accompaniment of life in the same sense that pain and disease are abnormal.
• The Dualistic Good
• The Natural Ceilings Of Pleasure
• Pleasure Not Increased By Immortality
• The Fullness of Pleasure
• The Unity of Pleasure
• The Root of All Good
• Pleasure Can Be Continuous
• Continuous Pain Impossible
• The Relation of Pleasure To Virtue

Here's the excerpt from Cicero talking about Hegesias that is linked above from Wikipedia:

XXXIV. I am not without hopes myself that such may be our fate. But admit what they assert—that the soul does not continue to exist after death.

A. Should it be so, I see that we are then deprived of the hopes of a happier life.

45M. But what is there of evil in that opinion? For let the soul perish as the body: is there any pain, or indeed any feeling at all, in the body after death? No one, indeed asserts that; though Epicurus charges Democritus with saying so; but the disciples of Democritus deny it. No sense, therefore, remains in the soul; for the soul is nowhere. Where, then, is the evil? for there is nothing but these two things. Is it because the mere separation of the soul and body cannot be effected without pain? But even should that be granted, how small a pain must that be! Yet I think that it is false, and that it is very often unaccompanied by any sensation at all, and sometimes even attended with pleasure; but certainly the whole must be very trifling, whatever it is, for it is instantaneous. What makes us uneasy, or rather gives us pain, is the leaving all the good things of life. But just consider if I might not more properly say, leaving the evils of life; only there is no reason for my now occupying myself in bewailing the life of man, and yet I might, with very good reason. But what occasion is there, when what I am laboring to prove is that no one is miserable after death, to make life more miserable by lamenting over it? I have done that in the book which I wrote, in order to comfort myself as well as I could. If, then, our inquiry is after truth, death withdraws us from evil, not from good. This subject is indeed so copiously handled by Hegesias, the Cyrenaic philosopher, that he is said to have been forbidden by Ptolemy from delivering his lectures in the schools, because some who heard him made away with themselves. There is, too, an epigram of Callimachus²⁰ on Cleombrotus of Ambracia, who, without any misfortune having befallen him, as he says, threw himself from a wall into the sea, after he had read a book of Plato’s. The book I mentioned of that Hegesias is called Ἀποκαρτερτερῶν, or “A Man who 46starves himself,” in which a man is represented as killing himself by starvation, till he is prevented by his friends, in reply to whom he reckons up all the miseries of human life. I might do the same, though not so fully as he, who thinks it not worth any man’s while to live. I pass over others. Was it even worth my while to live, for, had I died before I was deprived of the comforts of my own family, and of the honors which I received for my public services, would not death have taken me from the evils of life rather than from its blessings?

Great replies so far. Another practical factor that should be obvious is the time context. We regularly give people who are dying powerful pain killers, knowing that they are not likely to be around long enough to experience the long term side effects. In fact I would say it would be monstrous NOT to use chemicals to deaden pain out of some concern for "virtue" or that drugs are wrong in and of themselves.

So the situation being evaluated has to consider the full context.

First, thanks for letting us know that you enjoy the podcast. One of the reasons we have pushed forward with it even after we finished the first run-through of Lucretius is that I think it helps to hear real live people who approach the philosophy similarly rather than just reading pages in a book or letters on a screen.

Glad to have you reading and listening and please join the conversations wherever you feel appropriate.

Just to help start the discussion, this is a great question, and gets into the "objective vs subjective" discussion that Emily Austin raises in Chapter 3 of her book.

It also raises issues of how "sound mind in a sound body" and our discussions of pleasure as including healthy functioning of the organism (the "hand" argument from Torquatus) are relevant.

And not at all the least, it raises PD10

PD10. If the things that produce the pleasures of profligates could dispel the fears of the mind about the phenomena of the sky, and death, and its pains, and also teach the limits of desires (and of pains), we should never have cause to blame them: for they would be filling themselves full, with pleasures from every source, and never have pain of body or mind, which is the evil of life.

In a similar vein as what Nate just posted that the Christians would have held the Epicureans in particularly low regard there is this from Alexander the Oracle Monger, where again the other schools were willing to collaborate with the revealed religionists, but the Epicureans were not:

The prosperity of the oracle is perhaps not so wonderful, when one learns what sensible, intelligent questions were in fashion with its votaries. Well, it was war to the knife between him and Epicurus, and no wonder. What fitter enemy for a charlatan who patronized miracles and hated truth, than the thinker who had grasped the nature of things and was in solitary possession of that truth? As for the Platonists, Stoics, Pythagoreans, they were his good friends; he had no quarrel with them. But the unmitigated Epicurus, as he used to call him, could not but be hateful to him, treating all such pretensions as absurd and puerile.

Epicurus.info : E-Texts : Alexander the Oracle Monger

Quote from ThinkingCat

ok great, so I promise I will go away and do some reading but could anyone briefly summarize.....

We are glad to do that in virtually every case so don't worry that you are be asked to go away and read the manual

Quote from ThinkingCat

Would that be accurate? Do you know why he believed in any gods at all? I am an atheist btw

Yes that statement is accurate with a caveat as to "the gods." Epicurus' working definition of "gods" does not include being supernatural, being omniscient, being omipresent, being omnipotent, or most any of the other attributes that monotheism has taught us to believe.

It's better to say that Epicurus held that "gods" exist, by which he means beings which are deathless and who live in perfect happiness without pain, in the "intermundia" -- the space between the "worlds" - which has no contact with us here on earth.

As to why he believes in this type of god at all, the best reference for that is in Cicero's "On the nature of the gods." The answer seems tied to anticipations / prolepsis, but the sources are not clear. Per the same text there is probably also linkage to the fact that Epicurus believed that life exists throughout the universe, and that it is "equitably distributed," and that nature never makes only a single thing of a kind. When you add those things together with believing that the universe is infinitely old and infinitely wide (boundless), then you have the implication that Epicurus believed that we can reason our way to believing that there are living beings throughout the universe, some of whom have reached this state of deathlessness and perfect happiness.

Lots more we can add but this is a start!

Quote from Don

But pleasure, as a feeling, is limited to the point where there is no pain, when the body is satiated. Full satisfaction is the limit of pleasure.

Yep and that observation neatly meets the objection that pleasure has no limit or no end, and that for practical purposes (the limited life of humans) the human goal of pleasurable living CAN"T infinitely be made better. At some point every day and in your life you're full -- or as Joshua added in the podcast, you meet your final limit - death.

But it's also important that our calling this out amounts to engaging in "argument through logic" which to me is entirely separate from the argument from practical observation of nature. This is an argument that is essential to defeat Plato and Seneca, but unfortunately, if you separate out the "argument through logic" and don't explain the context, you're left fixated on a "limit" as if that is the only issue involved, when most assuredly there are many other and more important issues that don't end up being confusing in isolation.

If we talk about pigs and babies and real living things, it's much harder to think in terms of their day to day practical goal being well defined by discussing "limits." The logic argument is invaluable in its context, but can't be taken as the ultimate reasoning. I think Epicurus engaged in it, and we have to also, because we are faced with the necessity of fighting on logical terms if we want to communicate with people who are interested in ideas, but that doesn't mean that the whole exercise isn't hazardous for both sides. It's easy to omit important points and end up looking bad when taken out of context.

Quote from Torquatus

So he says we need no reasoning or debate to shew why pleasure is matter for desire, pain for aversion. These facts he thinks are simply perceived, just as the fact that fire is hot, snow is white, and honey sweet, no one of which facts are we bound to support by elaborate arguments; it is enough merely to draw attention to the fact; and there is a difference between proof and formal argument on the one hand and a slight hint and direction of the attention on the other; the one process reveals to us mysteries and things under a veil, so to speak; the other enables us to pronounce upon patent and evident facts.

Also:

Quote from Don

conflating (on purpose) pleasure and desire. The *desire* for pleasure is infinite

It may well help us to distinguish pleasure and desire like that, but I don't think it would help Plato or Seneca for the reason you mentioned -- they are conflating things *on purpose* because they want to defend their own "god" (virtue, wisdom, etc) as the ultimate end. If you were to point out to them the distinction between pleasure and desire they would just shift off in another direction with another similar argument, maybe reminding you that cows have similar limits, but are you a cow?

There's ultimately no satisfying these people because they have made up their minds and they are not going to change. But we can help a lot of other people - open-minded people - by explaining these issues, so they don't end up confused and lost like Philebus was at the end of that dialogue.

Quote from Nate

TAΓAϴON seems to have a similar application, in that the word popularly connotes a perfect, transcendental principle, but also literally refers to that objects that create pleasurable feelings, or pleasure itself.

Yep. And how do you fight against thousands of years of false premises in the meaning of "gods" or "good" or "the end" or any of such terms -- it's very frustrating but a conversation that has to be held.