Posts by Cassius

I am on my phone and have to be brief in this post but aside from my views on the K/ K issue as a whole, it is my understanding that any pleasure which involves starting and stopping (summoning up a memory, or thinking of gratitude or anything else at a particular moment) is considered kinetic because it involves change. This is one of the difficulties of the k/k distinction.

Dr Boeri has provided us with two reviews of his book - one here

The Epicurean Life Revealed: Politics and Security – SUN NEWS AUSTIN

Unfortunately there was a second "golden" reference that I wanted but could not find quickly enough - the one in which Cicero describes the canon - if I recall correctly - as if let down from heaven on a golden rope. But I may be wrong about that one, and its context may have been sarcastic.

EDIT: OOPS SORRY = it fell from heaven, not let down on a golden rope!

[63] It was indeed excellently said by Epicurus that fortune only in a small degree crosses the wise man’s path, and that his greatest and most important undertakings are executed in accordance with his own design and his own principles, and that no greater pleasure can be reaped from a life which is without end in time, than is reaped from this which we know to have its allotted end. He judged that the logic of your school possesses no efficacy either for the amelioration of life or for the facilitation of debate. He laid the greatest stress on natural science. That branch of knowledge enables us to realize clearly the force of words and the natural conditions of speech and the theory of consistent and contradictory expressions; and when we have learned the constitution of the universe we are relieved of superstition, are emancipated from the dread of death, are not agitated through ignorance of phenomena, from which ignorance, more than any thing else, terrible panics often arise ; finally, our characters will also be improved when we have learned what it is that nature craves. Then again if we grasp a firm knowledge of phenomena, and uphold that canon, which almost fell from heaven into human ken, that test to which we are to bring all our judgments concerning things, we shall never succumb to any man’s eloquence and abandon our opinions.

HA! Not ONLY of Plato:

Lucretius Book Three¶

O Epicurus, who could first strike so clear a light from so great darkness, and direct us in the proper advantages of life, Thee, the glory of the Grecian name, I follow. Thy steps I closely trace with mine, not so much from a desire to rival thee, as from the love I bear, and the ardent passion I profess to imitate thee. For how can the swallow contend in singing with the swan? Or what can kids, with feeble limbs, perform in running with the noble horse's speed?

Thou great Father, founder of philosophy! Thou with paternal precepts dost inspire thy sons, and from thy writings, most illustrious chief, as bees such honey from the flowery fields, we feed upon thy golden sentences - golden, and fit eternally to live. For when thy reason first began to prove that Nature was not formed by powers divine, the terrors of the mind all fled, the walls of this great world lie open, and I see how things are managed through the mighty void. The deity of the gods, their calm abodes appear, which neither winds disturb, nor clouds overflow with showers, nor the white-falling snow, congealed by sharpest frost, does spoil; but the unclouded air surrounds them always, and smiles on them fully with diffused light. Nature in every thing supplies their wants; nothing at any time destroys their peace. But the wide tracts of Hell are nowhere seen, nor does the interposing Earth prevent our sight, but we discover what beneath our feet is doing in the space below. In these pursuits a certain divine pleasure spreads round me, and I stand amazed, that by thy strength of mind, all nature every way lies naked to our view.

Happy birthday both to Joshua and also (if I understand correctly) Kalosyni! Two important figures for our forum in one day!

Quote from Don

Seems to me this would be talking about epitomes and summaries vs full lectures and books, e.g., letter to Herodotus vs the books of On Nature.

Yes I'd say it "could," but if I were collecting maxims of the golden words of Epicurus I suspect I would have found one a little more useful about pleasure or death or the gods to include, and left that one out

Quote from Titus

One could also think of it as a critique of the argument: "This is science!" (and therefore truth - trust me, not your senses). Do you think this is appropriate or does it overstretch the argument?

At first thought i don't have much info to offer on the other points but I definitely agree that this is part of Epicurus' attitude. Any kind of argument from "authority" where people are supposed to accept a conclusion that they cannot themselves understand as opposed to what their own senses tell them is going to be highly scrutinized. The Epicureans were confronting their own contemporary arguments about the application of "science" and "mathematics" on the implications of issues such as the size of the sun and the nature of the stars, and separating what can be proved from what goes too far is always tricky.

Happy Birthday to Joshua! Learn more about Joshua and say happy birthday on Joshua's timeline: Joshua

I agree there is probably more going on here too. Isn't there a parallel reference somewhere (Lucretius?) to different birds using different types of calls? I could see potentially some context of discussion of language or even the "frank speech" issue being involved here too. I would generally expect a deeper philosophic point than Bailey seems to be accepting in order for a passage to make the cut into a collection.

Yes Don it sure looks like Bailey is trying to claim a higher status for philosophy because he is disposed in that direction.

It in fact looks at least as much that they were concerned about asserting how some pleasures come as a result of excitement or stimulation (eat and drink and sex) while others accompany the natural functioning (of body or in this case the mind) even when stimulation or excitement is absent.

Given the nonstandard manner of speaking I could well imagine that from start to finish the Epicureans were regularly coming up with illustrations of how to think of pleasure as *every* experience of life which is not painful. That's not the normal way of thinking, but if you do take that attitude then it transforms the vocabulary and leads to all sorts of new constructions.

It's pretty easy to see that pleasure has to arise coincidentally with the activity in many cases (but not all) for this approach to work.

Quote from Kalosyni

Perhaps this list could be made into a pamplet, or something good for new forum members to read.

Yes I suspect that ww have earlier threads on this, perhaps linked in the FAQ, so the challenge here is not only to come up with a list but make it findable and curated with new additions over time.

Thank you for these commentaries Don!

Pacatus in the book Dr. Boeri and Dr Aioz go into detail analogizing the development of justice and the development of language, which they believe (I think correctly) are both related to prolepsis. I don't recall a lot of detail to offer more than that, but what I think is a part of their analysis is that justice and language emerge naturally, without being handed down by gods or dictated by a few "great men," or existing as a result of Platonic ideals, and so there are going to be differences in conceptions of justice just as there are differences in language.

I am not exactly sure if or how that relates to your second paragraph but I think it probably does.

As you know I asked Dr. Boeri to clarify what he meant, as I figured I was not the only one who was unsure. I took his answer to mean much what Lucretius references in DRN -- constantly standing for electoral office and running time after time even after defeat after defeat. For us oldersters out there, there was someone who used to run for president year after year. I don't think I am thinking of Lyndon Larouche, or even Pat Paulson, but someone else (?)

(Edit - Maybe I am thinking "Harold Stassen" but I am skirting near the no politics rule so I'll stop there )

Thanks very much for those links, Don. Adding them to the Youtube version.

Before I forget, special thanks to Onenski for his assistance with setting up this episode and conducting the interview. Scheduling issues prevented most of our regular podcasters from attending, but Onenski stepped in and did a great job. Thank you!

There's a lot more to learn from Frances Wright too. There are several good articles in her collections of works that were published after "A Few Days In Athens," some of which I review briefly in the section here on the forum devoted to her. I don't think we can call her 100% Epicurean, but she's pretty close to 100% fearless!

Well once you get your priorities in order and finish the game, I think you'll be very pleased with Dr. Boeri has to say!

Youtube version for easier sharing and greater discovery:

Our interview with Dr. Boeri is now live!