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Posts by Cassius

  • Epicurus And Pleasure As The Awareness Of Smooth Motion

    • Cassius
    • February 6, 2024 at 4:55 AM

    I see that I am just short of a year since the time this subject last came to mind. Before I remembered that this thread existed, this time I collected the references to smoothness from the Daniel Browne edition (below).

    This time "smooth motion" comes to mind in the context of how Torquatus conveys that no proposition can be more true than that pleasure equals the absence of pain, bringing within the term "pleasure" both (1) the agreeable experiences that are the result of stimulation and (2) those which are not the result of stimulation but of the normal healthy function of the organism.

    Might it not be possible or even likely that the common denominator between these two types of experiences would be the "smooth motion" of those two categories? When "stimulated," pleasurable / agreeable feelings are those stimulations that prompt the intensification ("condensation?") of the existing smooth motion of the living thing. When not "stimulated," the normal pleasurable / non-painful condition of life consists in the normal healthy smooth-motion functioning of that living being. Pain is the opposite - pain is rough motion - disruption in smooth motion at any speed.

    Ralph Nader had a well known book "Unsafe At Any Speed." Altering that title a little, pleasure is smooth motion at any speed, and pain is rough motion at any speed. Total absence of speed is death.

    There seem to be plenty of citations within Lucretius to indicate that Epicurus tied pleasure to smooth motion. These would be useful in supporting an argument that generally speaking pleasure is (or arises from our awareness of) smooth motion. From that perspective it is equally proper to consider the regular smooth motion of the "un-stimulated" person to be pleasure just like it is pleasure when "stimulation" produces irregular and intensified but still smooth motion.

    Smoothness and Pleasure

    Lucretius Book 2 - Daniel Browne

    [398] Thus it is that honey and milk pass in the mouth with a pleasing sensation over the tongue; on the contrary, the bitter juice of wormwood and sharp Centaury torment the palate with a loathsome taste. From whence you collect easily that those things which agreeably affect the sense are composed of particles smooth and round; and such again that seem rough and bitter are bound together by parts more hooked, and closer twined; and therefore they tear the way to our senses, and wound the body as they enter through the skin.

    [408] In short, such things as are agreeable to our senses, and those that are rough and unpleasant to the touch, are opposite, and formed of a figure very different from one another; lest you should think perhaps that the grating sound of the whetting of a saw was made of parts equally smooth, without the soft notes of a lute, which the musician forms upon the strings, awaked, as it were, by the gentle strokes of his fingers.

    Nor are you to suppose that the seeds are of the same form which strike upon our nerves of smell, when a filthy carcass is burning, or when the stage is fresh sprinkled with Cilician saffron, or the altar sweetens the air with the odor of Arabian incense.

    And so in colors you must not imagine such as are agreeable and delight our eyes are composed of the same fashioned seeds with those which prick our sense, and force us to weep, or seem dark or ugly, and shocking in appearance to us; for whatever pleases and delights our senses cannot be composed but of smooth particles; and, on the contrary, things that are hurtful and harsh cannot be formed without seeds that are filthy and disagreeable.

    There are other seeds, likewise, which you cannot properly call smooth, nor are altogether hooked, with their points bent, but are rather shaped with small ankles, a little jutting out, and may be said rather to tickle than to hurt the senses; such as the acid taste of the sweet sauce made of the Lees of wine, or the sweet sauce made of the sweetish-bitter root of Elecampane. Lastly, that burning heat, or freezing cold, being formed of seeds of different figures, do affect the body with different sensation our touch is evidence sufficient to evince.

    For Touch, the Touch (blessed be the Gods above!) is a Sense of the Body, either when something from without enters through the pores, or something from within hurts us, as it forces its way out, or pleases, as the effect of venery tickles as it passes through, or when the seeds, by striking against each other, raise a tumult in the body, and in that agitation confound the Sense; and this you may soon experience, if you strike yourself in any part with a blow of your hand. It is necessary, therefore, that the Principles of Things should consist of figures very different in themselves, since they affect the Senses in so different a manner.

    [444] Further, those things which appear to us hard and thick, must necessarily be joined together by particles more hooked among themselves, and be held close by branched seeds. In the first rank of these, you are to place the rocks of Adamant, that defy the force of blows, and solid flints, and the strength of hard iron, and brazen hinges, that creak under the weight of their gates.

    But Liquids that consist of fluid bodies, must be formed of seeds more smooth and round; for their globular particles are not entangled among themselves, and their flowing motion rolls on forward with the greater Ease.

    But lastly, all such Things which you observe instantly to scatter, and fly away as smoke, clouds, and flame, if they do not consist altogether of particles that are smooth and round, yet neither are they formed of hooked Seeds, and therefore may pierce through bodies, and penetrate into stones; nor do their particles nevertheless stick mutually to one another, as we observe the particles of thorns do. From thence you may easily conclude that they are not composed of hooked or entangled, but of acute Principles.

    But because you see the same things are bitter and fluid, as the Sea-water, are you to wonder in the least at this; For what is fluid is formed of Principles that are smooth and round, but with these smooth and round seeds are mixed others that are sharp, and give pain. Yet there is no necessity that these sharp seeds should be hooked and twined together; it is sufficient that they be globous as well as rough, that they may be qualified to flow along in their proper Course, as well as to hurt the sense.And that you may the sooner believe that these sharp seeds are mixed with those that are smooth, from whence the body of the sea becomes salt, the way is to separate them, and consider them distinct; for the Sea-water grows sweet by being often filtered through the Earth, and so fills the ditches, where it becomes soft; for it leaves behind the pungent seeds of the rough salt, which are more inclined to stick as they pass along, than those particles that are globular and smooth.

    Book 3 - Smoothness of Mind

    [177] I shall now go on to explain clearly of what sort of body this mind consists, and of what principles it is formed. And first I say that the mind is composed of very subtle and minute seeds; that it is so, attend closely, and you will find that nothing is accomplished with so much speed as what the mind attempts, and proposes to execute. The Mind therefore is swifter in its motion than anything in nature we can see or conceive. But that which is so exceedingly quick to move must consist of the roundest and most minute seeds, that may be set a-going by the lightest impulse. So water is moved and disposed to flow by ever so little force, because it is composed of small and slippery seeds; but the nature of Honey is more tenacious, its moisture is more unactive, and its motion slower; its principles stick closer among themselves; and for this reason, because it consists of seeds not so smooth, so subtle, and so round. And thus a large heap of poppy seeds is blown away by the gentlest breath of wind, and scattered abroad; but no blast can shake a heap of stones or darts. Therefore the smoother and smaller the principles of bodies are, the more easily they are disposed to motion, and the heavier and rougher the seeds are, the more fixed and stable they remain.

    Since therefore the nature of the mind is so exceedingly apt to move, it must needs consist of small, smooth, and round seeds; and your knowing this, my sweet youth, will be found of great use, and very seasonable for your future inquiries. ...

    [231] Yet we are not to suppose this nature of the mind to be simple and unmixed; for a thin breath mingled with a warm vapor, forsakes the bodies of dying men; and this vapor draws the air along with it, for there can be no heat without air intermixed, and heat being in its nature rare, must needs have some seeds of air united with it. We find then the mind consists of three principles: of vapor, air, and heat; yet all these are not sufficient to produce sense: For we cannot conceive that either of these, or all of them united, can be the cause of sensible motions that may produce reason and thought.

    And therefore a fourth nature must needs be added to these (and this indeed has no name at all) but nothing can be more apt to move, nothing more subtle than this, nor consist more of small smooth seeds; and this is what first raises a sensible motion through the body: this, as it is formed of the minutest particles, is first put into motion, then the heat, and the unseen vapor receive a motion from it, and then we are and so all the limbs are set a-going; then is the blood agitated, and all the bowels become sensible, and last of all, pleasure or pain is communicated to the bones and marrow. But no pain or any violent evil can pierce so far without disordering and setting the whole into confusion, so that there is no more place for life, and the parts of the soul fly away through the pores of the body. But this motion often stops upon the surface of the body, and then the soul remains whole, and the life is preserved.

    Book 4

    Inspired, I wander over the Muses seats, of difficult access, and yet untrod; I love to approach the purest springs, and thence to draw large draughts; I love to crop fresh flowers and make a noble garland for my head from thence, where yet the Muses never bound another's temples with a crown like mine. And first I write of lofty things, and strive to free the mind from the severest bonds of what men call religion; then my verse I frame so clear, although my theme by dark; seasoning my lines with the poetic sweets of fancy, and reason justifies the method; for as physicians when they would prevail on children to take down a bitter draught of wormwood, first tinge the edges of the cup with sweet and yellow honey, that so the children's unsuspecting age, at least their lips, may be deceived, and take the bitter juice; thus harmlessly betrayed, but not abused, by tasting thus they rather have their health restored: So I, because this system seems severe and harsh to such who have not yet discerned its truth, and the common herd are utterly averse to this philosophy, I thought it fit to show these rigid principles in verse, smooth and alluring, and tinge them, as it were, with sweet poetic honey, thus to charm your mind with my soft numbers till you view the nature of all things clearly, and perceive the usefulness and order they display.

    ...


    And now, in what manner each of the other senses distinguishes its proper object is a subject of no great difficulty to explain. And first, sound and all voices are heard when they enter the ears, and strike with their bodies upon the sense; for we must allow that sound and voice are bodies, because they have power to make impression upon the sense; for the voice often scrapes the jaws, and the noise makes the windpipe rough as it passes through. When the seeds of words begin to hurry in a crowd through the narrow nerves, and to rush abroad, those vessels being full, the throat is raked and made hoarse, and the voice wounds the passage through which it goes into the air. There is no question then but voice and words consist of corporeal principles, because they affect and hurt the sense. You are likewise to observe how much a continual speaking, from morning to night, takes off from the body; how much it wears away from the very nerves and strength of the speaker, especially if it be delivered in the highest stretch of the voice. Of necessity therefore voice must be a body, because the speaker loses many parts from himself. The roughness then of the voice depends upon the roughness of the seeds, as the smoothness is produced from smooth seeds; nor are the seeds from the same figure that strike the ears when the trumpet sounds with grave and murmuring blasts, as when the sackbut rings with its hoarse noise, or swans in the cold vales of Helicon sing out with mournful notes their sweet complaint.

    ....

    Nor is the account of the tongue and palate, by which we taste, a subject of greater nicety or more difficult to explain. And first, we perceive a taste in the mouth when we squeeze the juice from our food by chewing, as if we were to press a sponge full of water in our hands to make it dry; then the juice we draw out is spread over the pores of the palate, and through the crooked passages of the spongy tongue. When the seeds of this flowing juice are smooth, they gently touch, and affect all the moist and sweating surface of the tongue with sweet delight; but the seeds, the more rough and sharp they are, the more they stimulate and tear the sense. And then the pleasure of taste we feel no further than the palate; when the food is driven down through the jaws and divided among the limbs, the pleasure is gone; nor is it of any concern with what meat our bodies are nourished, if you can but digest what you eat, and separate it among the members, and preserve the moist tenor of the stomach.

    I shall now account why, as we find, different sorts of food are agreeable to different palates; or why, what is sour and bitter to some seems to others exceeding sweet. In these cases the variety and difference are so great that what is food to one will prove sharp poison to another; and it happens that a serpent touched with the spittle of a man expires and bites himself to death.

    Besides, to us Hellebore is strong poison, but goats it fattens, and is nourishment to quails; and to understand by what means this comes to pass, you must recollect what we observed before, that seeds of different kinds are mingled in the composition of all bodies.

    And then all animals supported by food, as they differ in outward shape, and after their several kinds have a different form of body and limbs, so they consist of seeds of different figures, and since their seeds differ, the pores and passages which (as we said) were in all the parts, and in the mouth and palate itself, must differ likewise; some must be less, some greater, some with three, some with four squares; many round, and some with many corners in various manners: For as the frame of the seeds and their motions require, the pores must differ in their figure. The difference of the pores depends upon the texture of the seeds, and therefore what is sweet to one is bitter to another: It is sweet because the smoothest seeds gently enter into the pores of the palate; but the same food is bitter to another because the sharp and hooked particles pierce the jaws and wound the sense.

    Book Six

    [80] That the rules therefore of right reason may keep these evils at the greatest distance from us, though I have offered many things upon this subject before, yet much still remains to be observed, which I shall adorn with the smoothest verse.

  • Versions of the Text of Lucretius - 1743 Daniel Browne Edition - Unknown Translator

    • Cassius
    • February 6, 2024 at 4:08 AM

    If anyone has a spare thousand dollars laying around, they can purchase a good condition copy of this on Abebooks. Here's the entry:

    T. Lucretius Carus of the Nature of Things , in Six Books, iIllustrated with Proper and Useful NOTES, Adorned with COPPER-PLATES, curiously engraved, By GUERNIER, and others. In Two Volumes. by Lucretius: Very Good Hardcover (1748) | Polyanthus Books

    And some photos:






    Octavo. The seven etchings are those from the Tonson edition of 1712, here also in quarto size, as fold-outs (with one larger), all in fine condition, without tears. With additional wood cut ornaments. Titles in red and black. Firm C20th modern leather binding. One loose page, but still attached (V. I, p. xv). Seller Inventory # A65498

  • Major Herculaneum Scroll News: "In the closing section of the text our author takes a parting shot at his adversaries, who 'have nothing to say about pleasure, either in general or in particular, when it is a question of definition.'”

    • Cassius
    • February 5, 2024 at 7:18 PM

    Since this episode of Lucretius today focuses on the importance of being clear about the nature of pleasure, I'm posting this link here in addition to the normal places since it is not crazy to speculate that it may be on point with what Philodemus is complaining about:


  • Episode 213 - Cicero's On Ends - Book Two - Part 20 - No One But You Epicureans Define Pleasure As You Do! Why Do You Disguise Yourselves?

    • Cassius
    • February 5, 2024 at 7:16 PM

    Episode 213 of the Lucretius Today Podcast Is now available. On this day when a new line of Philodemus' text from Herculaneum is revealed, showing that Philodemus was complaining about lack of clarity in discussing Pleasure, we bring you an episode about a similar question raised by Cicero: "Why, Epicureans, is your definition of pleasure different from everyone else's? Why do you hide your meaning?" In this episode we discuss a likely Epicurean answer to that challenge.

  • Episode 213 - Cicero's On Ends - Book Two - Part 20 - No One But You Epicureans Define Pleasure As You Do! Why Do You Disguise Yourselves?

    • Cassius
    • February 5, 2024 at 2:59 PM

    In this podcast we discussed the desirability of consistently taking the same position, and unfortunately I was unable to come up with the exact quote from Diogenes Laertius I was trying to recall. Here's the reference I was thinking of as to being the same both awake and asleep. I feel sure there are others in other texts referencing honesty and clear-speaking:

    [121] He will erect statues of others, but whether he had one himself or not, he would be indifferent. Only the Wise man could discourse rightly on music and poetry, but in practice he would not compose poems. One wise man is not wiser than another. He will be ready to make money, but only when he is in straits and by means of his philosophy. He will pay court to a king, if occasion demands. He will rejoice at another’s misfortunes, but only for his correction. And he will gather together a school, but never so as to become a popular leader. He will give lectures in public, but never unless asked; he will give definite teaching and not profess doubt. In his sleep he will be as he is awake, and on occasion he will even die for a friend.

  • Major Herculaneum Scroll News: "In the closing section of the text our author takes a parting shot at his adversaries, who 'have nothing to say about pleasure, either in general or in particular, when it is a question of definition.'”

    • Cassius
    • February 5, 2024 at 12:21 PM

    Sounds very promising if it is a discussion of the meaning of "pleasure"! Almost like he was lecturing some Epicureans of today who fail to focus on the importance of this topic. :)

    Are his adversaries Stoics -- or other Epicureans who were failing to argue the details of pleasure forcefully enough? The Stoics had plenty to say about pleasure - they denounced it.

    Would not be surprising to see echos of the debate that Cicero memorializes through Torquatus.

  • Major Herculaneum Scroll News: "In the closing section of the text our author takes a parting shot at his adversaries, who 'have nothing to say about pleasure, either in general or in particular, when it is a question of definition.'”

    • Cassius
    • February 5, 2024 at 12:08 PM
    Vesuvius Challenge 2023 Grand Prize awarded: we can read the scrolls!
    The 2000-year-old scroll discusses music, food, and how to enjoy life’s pleasures.
    scrollprize.org
  • Thoughts and Discussion on Organizing Epicurean Community

    • Cassius
    • February 5, 2024 at 6:20 AM

    For someone who is not strongly wedded to the question you've come up with a very useful list of considerations!

  • Place to Discuss Epicurean Organizational Theory and Practice

    • Cassius
    • February 4, 2024 at 8:44 AM

    Since we have had a number of threads lately which focus on theory and practice of how Epicurean groups in the present and future might be organizations, I've done some slight rearranging of the forums and created the one below specifically for this. This forum contains links to two of the major articles on the topic, DeWitt's "Organization and Procedure in Epicurean Groups" and Erlend D. MacGillivray's "Epicurean Mission and Membership From The Early Garden To The Late Roman Republic."

    This would be a good place to extend some of the recent discussion on how future Epicurean organizational methods might move forward in the future and what they might look like.


    Epicurean Organization Theory and Practice

  • Episode 213 - Cicero's On Ends - Book Two - Part 20 - No One But You Epicureans Define Pleasure As You Do! Why Do You Disguise Yourselves?

    • Cassius
    • February 4, 2024 at 6:29 AM

    Rackham's notes on two examples of friendship referenced in today's Episode:

    (1) Phintias, a Pythagorean, pleading for his friend Damon before Dionysius, 'tyrant' of Syracuse. Dionysius pardoned them both and begged to become a third in such a friendship.

    (2) Cicero refers to a scene in the Diilorestes of Pacuvius, where Thoas King of the Tauri wished to kill whichever of the two captives brought before him was Orestes.

    Story of Orestes and Pylades:

    Pylades - Wikipedia
    en.wikipedia.org
  • Let's Bring Back de Bergerac

    • Cassius
    • February 2, 2024 at 7:07 PM

    And me too! We really don't have a good way to keep things promoted.... Maybe this should be on YouTube or some other more visible venue? Perhaps with a voiceover reading It?

  • Gaius Cassius Longinus' Political Actions

    • Cassius
    • February 1, 2024 at 8:10 PM

    Under the influence of reading Cicero in years past, I used to be totally against Caesar and on Longinus' side and content to label Brutus and Longinus' actions as simply "general anti-dictator" and those of a "liberator," which they claimed to be.

    I am not nearly so firm on that today. I still have the highest respect for Longinus and think he was sincerely trying to apply Epicurean philosophy as he understood it (and I do think he understood it well). However at this point I focus on that I just don't have enough information about the forces at work in the Roman Civil War to be sure which side I would personally agree with. It seems that some of Caesar's supporters and possibly Caesar himself had substantial Epicurean leanings, so I don't think we can say with confidence that all Epicureans were on Longinus' side.

    There's usually at least two sides to every story, and my view today is that I personally don't have enough information to know whether Caesar was or could have been primarily a reformer of a rotten aristocracy, or whether he was truly a power-seeking totalitarian who was driven to be king and happy to overthrow the "Limited" government of the republic. He certainly knew enough to refuse the title of king up to the end, even though some of his supporters wanted to give it to him. That's not an entirely different situation than that of George Washington.

    We don't want to turn this into a discussion of modern political assassinations, but I personally am definitely interested in learning whatever there is to be learned about more of the facts of the Roman civil war situation. I think that those historical details would help us better understand the rise and fall of the Epicurean movement in the Roman period.

    The big question that generally gets raised is "Cassius couldn't have been a good Epicurean because a good Epicurean would never step forward so firmly into public life...." and that position I totally reject. So I think this would definitely be a useful discussion to learn more details about how Cassius might have viewed the situation. I suspect it was not simply an abstract "I love the Senate and the traditions of the Roman Republic" position, but I just don't know what other factors were involved.

  • Pros and Cons Of Considering Epicurean Philosophy To Be A "Religion"

    • Cassius
    • February 1, 2024 at 7:25 PM

    For now let me just say that the specifics of what procedures and Epicurean community might adopt strikes me as a very legitimate topic, so long as we are clear that we here in the forum are not that community, and so such a community would have to start up independently, with some of the people in this forum agreeing with those specifics and some not agreeing. It is extremely hard to get something like that off the ground, quite apart from the issue of whether it is desirable or not.

    I often call peoples' attention to this very long thread we had when we (ultimately fruitlessly) discussed whether people in this forum would agree to the principles of the Society of Epicurus.

    It proved to be a non-starter even to try to agree on a general set of principles. Agreeing to a much more rigorous set of procedures would be even harder.

    I think it's legitimate to discuss here at the forum general ideas as to how such a group might operate, but we probably need to be careful and reserve some of the more aggressive details and let anyone thinking such a group is a good idea take that discussion elsewhere. It's a hard question as to what makes sense to discuss here and what doesn't, but I suggest everyone avoid getting too intense on either side of questions that for the moment at least are purely hypothetical. This is probably an excellent time to remember the problems that Don and others regularly point out about the dangers of hypotheticals and the difficulty of keeping them in touch with reality.

  • Hermann Usener's 'Glossarium Epicureum'

    • Cassius
    • February 1, 2024 at 7:15 PM

    Never heard of this thank you very much!!

  • The Description of Epicurean Philosophy On Wikipedia

    • Cassius
    • February 1, 2024 at 2:33 PM
    Quote from Bryan

    I think that "the pictorial views of the mind" (phantastikai epibolai tes dianoias) is just a description of the the "visual stereotypes" (prolepseis), and thus they are used interchangeably.

    I agree with the direction of this and given that it appears from Diogenes Laertius that it was not Epicurus himself who elevated the status of this to the level of a criteria, i approach the subject with caution.

  • The Description of Epicurean Philosophy On Wikipedia

    • Cassius
    • February 1, 2024 at 6:32 AM

    I know that there is some material out there which focuses on "casting of the mind" and so forth. Most of what I have seen is combined with discussion of prolepsis. Godfrey is right that Christos Yapijakis has discussed it and I believe DeWitt covers this in is book.

    Part of the discussion begins on page 136 or so in relation to empiricim and the discussion of 'phantasia" but I think there is another section that i am not finding at the moment.

  • Happy Birthday General Thread

    • Cassius
    • February 1, 2024 at 4:06 AM

    Happy Birthday to Jo.! Learn more about Jo. and say happy birthday on Jo.'s timeline: Jo.

  • Pros and Cons Of Considering Epicurean Philosophy To Be A "Religion"

    • Cassius
    • January 31, 2024 at 3:47 PM

    You know, in regard to this use of words issue, I have been struck over the last several months by this passage from page 240 of DeWitt's book:

    Quote

    “The extension of the name of pleasure to this normal state of being was the major innovation of the new hedonism. It was in the negative form, freedom from pain of body and distress of mind, that it drew the most persistent and vigorous condemnation from adversaries. The contention was that the application of the name of pleasure to this state was unjustified on the ground that two different things were thereby being denominated by one name. Cicero made a great to-do over this argument, but it is really superficial and captious. The fact that the name of pleasure was not customarily applied to the normal or static state did not alter the fact that the name ought to be applied to it; nor that reason justified the application; nor that human beings would be the happier for so reasoning and believing.

    I have read lots of books and articles on Epicurus but I can't recall a paragraph that expressed this issue in quite this way - a way I find much more clear than anything else I recall reading.

    You could repeat that format over and over with other key concepts such as:

    The fact that the name of virtue was not customarily applied to define conduct that is practically efficient to producing a pleasurable life did not alter the fact that the name ought to be applied to it; nor that reason justified the application; nor that human beings would be the happier for so reasoning and believing.

    The fact that the name of gods was not customarily applied to beings that are not supernatural, or to blissful ways of life to which we should aspire, did not alter the fact that the name ought to be applied to it; nor that reason justified the application; nor that human beings would be the happier for so reasoning and believing.

    The fact that the name "absence of pain" was not customarily applied to all experiences of pleasure did not alter the fact that the name ought to be applied to it; nor that reason justified the application; nor that human beings would be the happier for so reasoning and believing.

    The fact that the name "death is nothing to us" was not customarily applied to describe the state of non-being after death, did not alter the fact that the name ought to be applied to it; nor that reason justified the application; nor that human beings would be the happier for so reasoning and believing.

    There are probably other examples as well, but those are the first that come to mind.

    Further -- I am sure that other writers must have written other short and concise and clear statements of Epicurean "clarification" or "redefinition" as it relates to understanding the philosophy. Maybe some of you guys can think of statements similar to that passage from page 240 of EAHP. Unfortunately, what I seem to remember is statement after statement to the effect that "Epicurus didn't really mean pleasure, he meant absence of pain," with an explicit or implicit nod toward this being a Stoic or Buddhist or apathetic way of looking at the question.

    If you can think of other formulations similar to DeWitt's, focusing on "absence of pain" applying to any non-painful experience whatsoever ("the normal state of being") please post them, and if there are enough we'll make a new thread of them.

    This is an extremely important issue to understand. People who aren't willing to be flexible in following the twists and turns of word meaning are never going to be anything but frustrated with Epicrurus -- as was one Marcus Tullius Cicero.

  • Pros and Cons Of Considering Epicurean Philosophy To Be A "Religion"

    • Cassius
    • January 31, 2024 at 1:14 PM
    Quote from Pacatus

    but, again, that seems to reflect a kind of paradigm shift from more conventional understandings of the word

    "Paradigm shifts from from conventional understandings of the word" seems to be much of what we're doing lately. It's a real challenge to think about where this goes in terms of how to convey the difference in meaning of words. It's hard to attached the prefix "Epicurean-" to everything but it seems to me that when we're talking about religion and the word cult and the like almost everything has to be considered in that "Epicurean-religion" "Epicurean-gods" context. I am not sure if the word "cult" has enough benefit in it to put it in the class of words that could or should be rehabilitated. Does "cult" add anything that can't be obtained through discussion "religion" in Epicurean terms? I think some people here would take the position that "religion is in itself a bad word" which has no merit worth rehabilitating, and some don't.

  • Information On Sidon

    • Cassius
    • January 30, 2024 at 4:36 PM

    Zeno of Sidon comes from the coast of what is now Lebanon. Here's a history site for archaeology in the area:

    Sidon Excavation | Sidon Excavation


    History of Sidon - Wikipedia
    en.wikipedia.org

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