Posts by Cassius

In the past we have had threads that touched on the issue of pain, pleasure, and addition, such as this one.

In addition, we regularly get questions such as:

I've been rethinking my relationship with XXXXX and how to navigate it in a way that’s consistent with a grounded materialist worldview. The religious structure of some self-help programs (like AA in particular) just doesn’t seem consistent with what Epicurus would recommend.

First of all, we always remind people that clinical / biological / genetic problems require professional help. No matter what the Stoics might say, you can't through sheer willpower "think" your way out of problems like that. Epicurus is reported by Diogenes Laertius at 117 that "A man cannot become wise with every kind of physical constitution, nor in every nation." It seems to me that that "physical constitution" part definitely includes issues that we'd describe as "clinical."

So the first step in this analysis is always to determine if you have a problem that requires professional help, and then get that professional help if you do.

But if the problem we are talking about is more on the order of "bad habits," then Epicurus definitely had things to say about that, such as:

Quote

VS46. "Let us utterly drive from us our bad habits, as if they were evil men who have long done us great harm." (Bailey)

That certainly seems to indicate that bad habits are to be taken seriously and are to be dealt with vigorously, not because there is anything intrinsically sinful in them, but because they produce great pain.

It's also likely that bad habits and addictions were addressed face to face among the ancient Epicureans, and it's for that reason that we see so much discussion of "frank speech." A personal level of interaction and accountability is very helpful and probably necessary. That's something that probably doesn't exist and probably impossible to get in an online communities.

Also, when we get questions about particular additions or habits, it's helpful to find someone in the community with recovery experience in the precise issue (either firsthand or as a therapist). If someone has experience in that area and is willing to let others know about it, starting a Zoom support group could be a baby step toward a fuller expression of Epicurus' original vision of friendship and support. If this strikes you as something you would be interested in volunteering to do in some capacity, let me know by private conversation and we can explore setting something like that up

We've definitely had people let us know that they've been through tough experiences and would have benefited from support with philosophically like-minded people. So if anyone has any experience or interest in being resources in such situations, again let us know.

So let's use this thread for those who can offer general comments that they've found helpful themselves and that fit within an Epicurean perspective. We'll see what direction this goes, and if we have any people who are interested in volunteering to be resources, let us know.

Quote from Eikadistes

Flickr, Imgur, Photobucket, DeviantArt, and Pinterest

Thanks for that list - that's what I've lost track of. I will take a look at those. Obviously no one wants to post and then lose images, so we need to investigate how long images stay there. I suppose there's some kind of facility through Google that does something similar

In a nearby thread today I have raised the issue of image sharing in the context of long term sustainability of the website - making sure our data does not balloon so large as to be unmanageable if we ever have to change web providers.

In addition, AI image generation raises all sorts of issues, one of which is that many people (not excluding me) are tempted to explore the technology.and post endless streams of draft graphics.

It seems to me in past years on other forums that people were urged to used image sharing websites (I seem to remember imgur as a name?) and then post their images here as links rather than uploads. The posts end up looking the same as now, but the images are stored elsewhere and don't count against our storage or transfer limits.

So this thread is to solicit ideas from our tech-oriented people on ideas how to implement such a system. We will obviously continue to have image uploads here as well, but lots of short-term-use photos could just as well go somewhere else.

I am sympathetic to Eikadistes ' view and will solicit comments from the moderators about how we can balance competing interests.

Even more than that, however, I need to review where we are on disk space and figure out a way to make sure that we keep image uploads that aren't long-term assets under control.

On that point too I'll ask for comments (separate thread) as we need to consider recommending some sort of image-sharing site so that people know how to post large images and then just post the links here. That will show up the same way but won't permanently occupy disk space here.

So far we have had no real issues but we are now in our tenth year and we probably need to reevaluate disk space issues.

UPDATE: Image Sharing Alternatives

After you've played with that for a while I'd like to post a version of that over on Facebook and make the revised version available in a reasonably high resolution, perhaps accompanied by colorized versions that reconstruct the idea that the ancient statues were painted.

That gives a 100% improved result that is much more consistent with the other representations.

Happy birthday to all with birthdays today but especially to Pacatus with thanks for all his contributions to the forum!

Happy Birthday to ifancya! Learn more about ifancya and say happy birthday on ifancya's timeline: ifancya

Happy Birthday to Pacatus! Learn more about Pacatus and say happy birthday on Pacatus's timeline: Pacatus

Episode 277 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. Today's episode is entitled: "Platonism Says This World Is Darkness and the Next World is Light - Epicurus Disagrees!"

If you only have 10 minutes to spare, be sure to listen to the closing by Joshua and Kalosyni starting at about 47:12.

Thank you Titus! You were definitely on the list to receive a personal invitation, along with others who immediately come to mind such as Eoghan Gardiner and Julia and no doubt many others whose locations have dropped out of my mind.

Quote from kochiekoch

It demonstrates that pleasure is a regulatory mechanism for the health of the person, even if it's gone a little awry in modern times.

Yes, I'd say it demonstrates that pleasure is a regulatory mechanism for the health of the person that is subject to distortion both by our own error and at the initiative of others. And both problems have have reached new levels in modern times.

Quote from vlasalv

Can we say then that "one cannot understand Nietzsche without understanding Epicurus"?

Well I wouldn't go that far. No doubt understanding how subtle Epicurus can be would help understanding Nietzsche to some degree, but Nietzsche sure didn't approach the idea of "clarity" the way Epicurus did.

So I'm not sure that it's a good idea to look at Epicurus as a prerequisite to Nietzsche. At first thought I tend to I think the main issue is the common devotion to "this world" and to the intensity of warfare against "otherworlders." Nietzsche's "AntiChrist" to me is a good example of that, and of course that's one of Nietzsche's most clear commendations of Lucretius.

Great! We'll be setting up a private conversation with the Zoom link and we'll be sure you get included.

I sure will and let me try again to fix those permissions.

And you Martin provide a good reminder that this is not only for the Western Hemisphere but also for anyone who finds out normal Wednesday time impractical.

Eikadistes while I will bow to the common view that Nietzsche is a mixed bag, I personally very much agree that a knowledge of Nietzsche is very helpful for understanding Epicurus, and I am not just talking about his pro-Lucretius and anti-Stoic comments.

The helpfulness of Nietzsche is a view shared by Elli in Greece, who I think has internalized the intensity of Epicurran philosophy so well at least in part because of her affinity for Nietzsche and also for the Greek version of Nietzsche, Dimitri Liantini.

At present I think I will target 12:30 EDT this coming Sunday the 27th for those who are available. It won't be super long or super detailed, just an hour (at most) for us to meet Rolfe (who says he is available) and any other Europeans or other new people who would like to attend.

If you're interested please let us know. We'll do a public announcement on the front page but we'll also set up a private conversation with Zoom details for those who let us know that they would like to attend.

Of course this is open to all regular Zoomers or any of our other regulars here who would like to attend, whether you're in Europe or not.

We'll think about a name for this as well to highlight that it's intended to be convenient for both USA and Europe, but for now it'll just be Sunday EpicureanFriends Zoom.

Or as Cicero wrote:

Cicero, In defense of Publius Sestius, 10.23: “He {Publius Clodius} praised those most who are said to be above all others the teachers and eulogists of pleasure {the Epicureans}. … He added that these same men were quite right in saying that the wise do everything for their own interests; that no sane man should engage in public affairs; that nothing was preferable to a life of tranquility crammed full of pleasures.

Here is a link to Perseus where the Latin and translation of this can be compared. The Latin is: “nihil esse praestabilius otiosa vita, plena et conferta voluptatibus.” See also here for word translations.

Quote from vlasalv

In that light, certain pains might be endured for the sake of greater inner peace, if they lead to that deep serenity.

There's definitely a lot to think about in coming to terms with what Epicurus means by the word pleasure, but just as with "gods," Epicurus did not change the word, just made its use more precise.

The danger in giving up the word "pleasure" and substituting "peace" or anything else in its place is that the result is to narrow the definition and to imply that what people ordinarily think of as pleasure is not part of the goal, and that danger is present whether the word one chooses is "peace" or "tranquility" or "absence of pain" or anything else. The ancient writers were very clear in stating that Epicurus was held to be an advocate of "pleasure," and that words like tranquility or peace fall within pleasure, not the other way around. As Epicurus is reported to have said, he would not know what the good is were it not for pleasures that we all understand to be pleasures. For example:

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Athenaeus, Deipnosophists, XII p. 546E: "Not only Aristippus and his followers, but also Epicurus and his welcomed kinetic pleasure; I will mention what follows, to avoid speaking of the “storms” {of passion} and the “delicacies” which Epicurus often cites, and the “stimuli” which he mentions in his On the End-Goal. For he says “For I at least do not even know what I should conceive the good to be, if I eliminate the pleasures of taste, and eliminate the pleasures of sex, and eliminate the pleasures of listening, and eliminate the pleasant motions caused in our vision by a visible form."