1. New
  2. Home
    1. Get Started - Activities
    2. Posting Policies
    3. Community Standards
    4. Terms of Use
    5. Moderator Team
    6. Member Announcements
    7. Site Map
    8. Quizzes
    9. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    10. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  3. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics
    5. Canonics
    6. Ethics
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  4. Forum
    1. New Activity
    2. New Threads
    3. Welcome
    4. General Discussion
    5. Featured
    6. Activism
    7. Shortcuts
    8. Dashboard
    9. Full Forum List
    10. Level 3+
    11. Most Discussed
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  • Login
  • Register
  • Search
This Thread
  • Everywhere
  • This Thread
  • This Forum
  • Forum
  • Articles
  • Blog Articles
  • Files
  • Gallery
  • Events
  • Pages
  • Wiki
  • Help
  • FAQ
  • More Options

Welcome To EpicureanFriends.com!

"Remember that you are mortal, and you have a limited time to live, and in devoting yourself to discussion of the nature of time and eternity you have seen things that have been, are now, and are to come."

Sign In Now
or
Register a new account
  1. New
  2. Home
    1. Get Started - Activities
    2. Posting Policies
    3. Community Standards
    4. Terms of Use
    5. Moderator Team
    6. Member Announcements
    7. Site Map
    8. Quizzes
    9. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    10. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  3. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics
    5. Canonics
    6. Ethics
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  4. Forum
    1. New Activity
    2. New Threads
    3. Welcome
    4. General Discussion
    5. Featured
    6. Activism
    7. Shortcuts
    8. Dashboard
    9. Full Forum List
    10. Level 3+
    11. Most Discussed
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  1. New
  2. Home
    1. Get Started - Activities
    2. Posting Policies
    3. Community Standards
    4. Terms of Use
    5. Moderator Team
    6. Member Announcements
    7. Site Map
    8. Quizzes
    9. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    10. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  3. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics
    5. Canonics
    6. Ethics
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  4. Forum
    1. New Activity
    2. New Threads
    3. Welcome
    4. General Discussion
    5. Featured
    6. Activism
    7. Shortcuts
    8. Dashboard
    9. Full Forum List
    10. Level 3+
    11. Most Discussed
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  1. EpicureanFriends - Home of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Forum
  3. Physics - The Nature Of The Universe
  4. There Is No Necessity To Live Under the Control of Necessity - The Swerve And Rejection of Determinism
  • Sidebar
  • Sidebar

Determinism & Chaos Theory

  • Don
  • May 3, 2024 at 8:17 AM
  • Go to last post
Regularly Checking In On A Small Screen Device? Bookmark THIS page!
  • Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    39,827
    Posts
    5,545
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • May 3, 2024 at 8:17 AM
    • #1

    Just watched the above video from Kyle Hill, and it struck me ... Physics (modern physics) does seem to say we live in a deterministic universe due to physical laws. However, that doesn't mean we live in a fully predictable universe per chaos theory. I felt this had an echo of Epicurean philosophy.

    Take a look at the video. Curious to hear thoughts.

  • TauPhi
    03 - Member
    Points
    1,688
    Posts
    190
    Quizzes
    3
    Quiz rate
    92.5 %
    • May 3, 2024 at 10:08 AM
    • #2
    Quote from Don

    Physics (modern physics) does seem to say we live in a deterministic universe due to physical laws. However, that doesn't mean we live in a fully predictable universe per chaos theory.

    It also doesn't mean we DON'T live in a fully predictable universe. It only means we don't have sufficient knowledge and processing power to determine chaotic predictability with perfect accuracy. For this reason, whether we live in a deterministic universe under the illusion of free will or we truly have free will is indistinguishable to us - at least for now.

  • Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    39,827
    Posts
    5,545
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • May 3, 2024 at 12:34 PM
    • #3
    Quote from TauPhi

    It also doesn't mean we DON'T live in a fully predictable universe.

    I guess it depends on one's definition of "predictable" in any given conversation.

  • TauPhi
    03 - Member
    Points
    1,688
    Posts
    190
    Quizzes
    3
    Quiz rate
    92.5 %
    • May 3, 2024 at 1:04 PM
    • #4
    Quote from Don

    I guess it depends on one's definition of "predictable" in any given conversation.

    In any given conversation with me you don't need to guess my definitions of words. I don't redefine words for my personal needs. I stick to 21st century English as it is generally accepted. That said, I am not a native speaker so I muddy the waters sometimes. When I do, it's because I haven't mastered the language properly not because I feel like vasring deemerorus adere offdac zxxcxcxcvggg.

  • Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    39,827
    Posts
    5,545
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • May 3, 2024 at 1:53 PM
    • #5

    Oh, I didn't mean in any language proficiency way or idiosyncratic way! Sorry if I implied that.

    I was thinking literally as in "predictable" in a theoretical way or "predictable" in a practical way.

    If - in a given conversation - someone wants to say, theoretically, that in the future some far-advanced hyper-super-quantum computing machine is able to plot the current state of all matter in the universe at every given microsecond... then, yes, theoretically, all future states are "predictable" due to the laws of physics; and the three-body-problem and all other issues raised with chaos theory go away.

    If - in another conversation - someone wants to say that "practically-speaking", chaos theory makes it "practically impossible" to predict future states of a given phenomenon outside a given predictability horizon, then it seems it turns into a matter of predictability in a "we'll never be able to predict this 'in our lifetime'" or "we can't predict this" scenario.

    So, given all that...

    Quote from TauPhi

    For this reason, whether we live in a deterministic universe under the illusion of free will or we truly have free will is indistinguishable to us - at least for now.

    I would tend to agree with your assessment in your quote there...at least right now as I type this in this conversation :)

  • TauPhi
    03 - Member
    Points
    1,688
    Posts
    190
    Quizzes
    3
    Quiz rate
    92.5 %
    • May 3, 2024 at 2:46 PM
    • #6
    Quote from Don

    Oh, I didn't mean in any language proficiency way or idiosyncratic way! Sorry if I implied that.

    Don You're such a good guy it never even crossed my mind you could want to say something inconsiderate. Nothing to be sorry about. I was just trying to make a (bad) joke and explain that I'm not a dude who likes conversations like:

    Someone: -It's a nice weather.
    Definitely not me: -Well, but what do you mean by 'nice' and 'weather' and 'it's'.

    And yes, I pretty much meant what you said above. :)

  • Martin
    04 - Moderator
    Points
    4,081
    Posts
    575
    Quizzes
    7
    Quiz rate
    85.9 %
    • May 5, 2024 at 6:54 AM
    • #7
    Quote

    Physics (modern physics) does seem to say we live in a deterministic universe due to physical laws.

    Some physicists interpret the known physics such that the universe is deterministic, others (including me) interpret it such that it has fundamental indeterminacy, not just difficulty for prediction.

    Quote

    ... that in the future some far-advanced hyper-super-quantum computing machine is able to plot the current state of all matter in the universe at every given microsecond... then, yes, theoretically, all future states are "predictable" due to the laws of physics; ...

    Such a computer is not conceivable because it would be like a 1:1 scale map of everything, that means the universe would be used to calculate itself, which makes it pointless. A fundamental indeterminacy at the present can only be resolved by waiting for the future to see which way the system has moved.

  • Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    39,827
    Posts
    5,545
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • May 5, 2024 at 7:26 AM
    • #8

    Great thought-provoking post, Martin. Thank you!

    In a quick search, I see there's been some academic papers on the topic... Most beyond me in a brief scan of the content ^^ so, turning to Wikipedia:

    Indeterminism - Wikipedia

    "Interpreting causation as a deterministic relation means that if A causes B, then A must always be followed by B. In this sense, war does not cause deaths, nor does smoking cause cancer. As a result, many turn to a notion of probabilistic causation. Informally, A probabilistically causes B if A's occurrence increases the probability of B. This is sometimes interpreted to reflect the imperfect knowledge of a deterministic system but other times interpreted to mean that the causal system under study has an inherently indeterministic nature." (PS. I just realized that article mentions Epicureanism!)

    I like where that is headed and would have been (at least consciously) unaware of it without Martin 's post.

    Quote from Martin

    Such a computer ... would be like a 1:1 scale map of everything

    I would go beyond that and offer that you might need multiple universes to compute the outcomes in one universe... It's "conceivable" (ie, I just conceived it :)) but completely impractical and maybe useless IF indeterminacy is the way things are.

  • Bryan
    ὁ Φιλαληθής
    Points
    4,772
    Posts
    584
    Quizzes
    4
    Quiz rate
    97.6 %
    • January 25, 2025 at 9:01 PM
    • #9

    Throwing in this clear and simple quote from Epikouros against determinists:

    "…While you all simultaneously make everything have its cause [of movement] from its former movement and turn reasoning upside down..."

    …ἅμα ποιοῦντες πάντ' ἀ[πὸ] τῆς προτέρας κ̣ινήσε̣[ω]ς τὴν αἰτίαν ἔχειν καὶ π̣ε̣ρικάτω τρέ̣ποντες τὸν λόγον…

    Book 25, P.Herc. 1420 col. 4 (fr. B 12)

Unread Threads

    1. Title
    2. Replies
    3. Last Reply
    1. Who are capable of figuring the problem out 5

      • Like 1
      • Patrikios
      • June 5, 2025 at 4:25 PM
      • General Discussion
      • Patrikios
      • June 6, 2025 at 6:54 PM
    2. Replies
      5
      Views
      294
      5
    3. Patrikios

      June 6, 2025 at 6:54 PM
    1. What fears does modern science remove, as Epicurean physics did in antiquity? 31

      • Like 5
      • sanantoniogarden
      • June 2, 2025 at 3:35 PM
      • General Discussion
      • sanantoniogarden
      • June 6, 2025 at 2:05 PM
    2. Replies
      31
      Views
      907
      31
    3. Don

      June 6, 2025 at 2:05 PM
    1. Porphyry - Letter to Marcella -"Vain Is the Word of the Philosopher..." 17

      • Like 1
      • Cassius
      • June 12, 2023 at 11:34 AM
      • Usener Collection
      • Cassius
      • June 3, 2025 at 11:17 PM
    2. Replies
      17
      Views
      5.8k
      17
    3. Bryan

      June 3, 2025 at 11:17 PM
    1. Daily life of ancient Epicureans / 21st Century Epicureans 38

      • Like 3
      • Robert
      • May 21, 2025 at 8:23 PM
      • General Discussion
      • Robert
      • May 29, 2025 at 1:44 PM
    2. Replies
      38
      Views
      2.8k
      38
    3. Pacatus

      May 29, 2025 at 1:44 PM
    1. Emily Austin's "LIving For Pleasure" Wins Award. (H/T to Lowri for finding this!)

      • Like 4
      • Cassius
      • May 28, 2025 at 10:57 PM
      • General Discussion
      • Cassius
      • May 28, 2025 at 10:57 PM
    2. Replies
      0
      Views
      250

Latest Posts

  • Tsouna's On Choices and Avoidances

    Robert June 8, 2025 at 1:37 AM
  • Episode 285 - Not Yet Recorded - Cicero Attacks Epicurus' PD04 And Says Virtue And Honor Is the Way To Overcome Bodily Pain

    Cassius June 7, 2025 at 3:12 PM
  • Updated Thoughts on the Question of "Peace and Safety" in the Works of Norman Dewitt

    Joshua June 7, 2025 at 2:02 PM
  • Who are capable of figuring the problem out

    Patrikios June 6, 2025 at 6:54 PM
  • What fears does modern science remove, as Epicurean physics did in antiquity?

    Don June 6, 2025 at 2:05 PM
  • Sunday, June 15 - Topic: The Letter of Cosma Raimondi

    Cassius June 6, 2025 at 1:46 PM
  • Welcome Balin!

    sanantoniogarden June 6, 2025 at 1:08 PM
  • Sunday, June 8, 2025 - Discussion Topic - "Practice" In Relation To Pain, Pleasure, and Happiness

    Cassius June 6, 2025 at 9:26 AM
  • What if Kyriai Doxai was NOT a list?

    Don June 5, 2025 at 7:12 AM
  • EpicureanFriends WIKI 2025 - Upgrades, Revisions, Planning

    Cassius June 4, 2025 at 2:23 PM

Similar Threads

  • Can Determinism Be Reconciled With Epicureanism? (Admin Edit - No, But Let's Talk About Why Not)

    • waterholic
    • September 24, 2022 at 8:46 AM
    • There Is No Necessity To Live Under the Control of Necessity - The Swerve And Rejection of Determinism

EpicureanFriends - Classical Epicurean Philosophy

  1. Home
    1. About Us
    2. Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Wiki
    1. Getting Started
  3. Frequently Asked Questions
    1. Site Map
  4. Forum
    1. Latest Threads
    2. Featured Threads
    3. Unread Posts
  5. Texts
    1. Core Texts
    2. Biography of Epicurus
    3. Lucretius
  6. Articles
    1. Latest Articles
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured Images
  8. Calendar
    1. This Month At EpicureanFriends
Powered by WoltLab Suite™ 6.0.22
Style: Inspire by cls-design
Stylename
Inspire
Manufacturer
cls-design
Licence
Commercial styles
Help
Supportforum
Visit cls-design