February 20, 2024 - 20th Gathering Via Zoom - Open Discussion This Month

"Open Discussion" also means: We're open to whatever is on your mind during the meeting, but even better - let us know beforehand (in this thread) if there are any topics on your mind that you'd like to see us cover.

How about Epicurean "spirituality" and, in particular, for the Epicurean does this idea relate to continuous happiness? I was thinking about this while listening to the podcast. Maybe it's too much to dig into in a 20th gathering though....

A different discussion might be "stability of pleasure". That's probably plenty to discuss, without adding spirituality.

On a related note, I've just begun reading Haris Dimitriadis' book The Natural Joys of Life. He has an interesting take on the kinetic/katastematic question. Basically (if I'm getting it right) he takes kinetic pleasure to be the experience and katastematic pleasure to be the stable pleasure of the memory of the experience. BTW the book is available on Kindle Unlimited for anybody who subscribes to that.

1 - Those are great suggestions thank you!

2 - I was totally unaware that Haris had produced that and what appears to be a whole series of similar books. Thanks for pointing that out!

Quote from Godfrey

he takes kinetic pleasure to be the experience and katastematic pleasure to be the stable pleasure of the memory of the experience.

I don't doubt but that this kind of perspective may be a part of the picture and that memories of good experiences are an important pleasure in life.

But when you dig down into the examples of the full meaning of pleasure that Torquatus and Cicero seem to think is the accepted Epicurean viewpoint as developed up to 50 BC, focusing on 'memory' doesn't begin to explain how the normal healthy but unstimulated hand (which has no memory) is experiencing pleasure, nor how the great number of men who you know nothing about except that they are experiencing neither severe pain nor delight at that moment are experiencing pleasure, or how the host pouring and the guest drinking (neither activity of which would seemingly involve memory) are both experiencing pleasure, or how no proposition can be more true than that pleasure "is" the absence of pain (which is stated without reference to memory at all).

So i would currently say that "memory" might have some role to play in listing out the non-stimulative pleasures, but I doubt that memory is the only or even the largest part of the picture. Your appreciation for being alive may be fed in part by your memories of the past, but I wouldn't think that "thinking about the past" should be considered the focus of appreciating that you are alive. In fact, I think we may have discussed before that "memory" or (really any kind of thinking) would traditionally be considered a "kinetic" pleasure as it involves change (your mind moving among various thought-pictures of the past).

Re Haris' books:

SKILLS OF HAPPINESS (8 book series)

Kindle Edition

by Haris Dimitriadis (Author) , Charalampos Dimitriadis (Author)

• Kindle
• Paperback

Welcome to the series "SKILLS OF HAPPINESS". This series aims to help readers develop valuable personal skills for a healthier and happier life. It combines philosophy, psychology, science, and actionable steps.

The series covers captivating content from the recently published second edition of my lifelong book, "EPICURUS AND THE PLEASANT LIFE." The additional material made the book too extensive for most readers to understand and assimilate. Therefore, I have published the most exciting content in a series of short books based on various subjects.

In this series, I examine each topic from three different perspectives, each with its distinct chronology. Firstly, I explain the Epicurean theories in meticulous detail. Secondly, I showcase the core aspects of classical philosophical thought, focusing on Aristotle's views. By comparing these two, we can better understand the differences between classical and Hellenistic philosophical thought. Finally, I explore modern intellectual and scientific opinions, leading to a second comparison round between Epicurean and contemporary views. This comparison allows us to understand the similarities or disagreements of opinions and ways of life. Hopefully, the similarities are overwhelming, and Epicurean advice is abundant on how to make our lives healthier and happier.

As to whether memory is kinetic I was thinking of this earlier post below in which we discussed gratitude as a kinetic pleasure. That thread is now a little hard to follow due to loss of some posts but I think we concluded gratitude is kinetic, as would any thought "process" of the mind (processes involve change which is key to motion of body or mind.)

Thread

Is gratitude a katastematic or kinetic pleasure?

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burninglights

October 25, 2023 at 10:45 AM

I'm still not settled on the issue of K vs K.... But I was intrigued to see Haris' take. It does seem to be one aspect, but not the whole picture, as you say. Maybe he'll address it further later on in the book. Also I believe that he's got some footnotes regarding K vs K, but I haven't tracked them down yet.

I added to the agenda that we are scheduled to remember Polystratus and Dionysius of Lamptrai as part of our program for tonight. Could be short but we can at least remember their names!

Dimitriadis is the head of the garden in Thessaloniki isn't he. I've only heard a few referring remarks to the subject. But I do have one of his books that I haven't been able to get to yet. It's pretty far down my list too so not gonna get to it soon.

Quote from DavidN

Dimitriadis is the head of the garden in Thessaloniki isn't he.

Actually I don't think so. My understanding is that Haris is not involved in any of the Greek groups to any degree, but I could be wrong about that. He speaks and writes excellent English though and I've always wanted to get him involved more in our American initiatives.