Would You Rather Live For A Week As (1) Epicurus During the Last Week of His Life or (2) An Anonymous Shepherd Laying In The Grass In The Summertime With No Pain At All?

    Would You Rather Live For A Week As (1) Epicurus During the Last Week of His Life or (2) An Anonymous Shepherd Laying In The Grass In The Summertime With No Pain At All? 14

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    The Poll Question is as stated in the header. Please reply, and state your reasoning, with any cites you think are applicable, in the thread below!

    Which would Epicurus choose?


    At this particular moment, despite my poll answer above, I think I'd choose the shepherd. Partly I'm choosing avoidance of pain ;) . But I'm also considering that learning and growth bring me great joy, and the shepherd is probably closer to my stage of growth, which perhaps would give me the space to enjoy the pleasures of nature and experience the process of growth.


    However, the option of Epicurus' final week could serve as a trial run for my own death (not that I anticipate dying in that particular way: more a trial run of the process of dying) and as such could be of value and interest.


    Having now answered a hypothetical, I'm turning and running from the rabbit hole as fast as my legs will carry me!

    Quote from Godfrey

    Which would Epicurus choose?

    That is a very good follow on question to help articulate the answer to the first and main question: Would Epicurus himself have traded places for the week that is under discussion?


    I think this poll should be very interesting and after we see some commentary and look for fine tuning I am going to put it on the Facebook group!


    :)

    The quirky option of referring the issue to Siro or Philodemus comes from On Ends Book Two:


    Quote from Cicero - On Ends Book Two

    When I had thus spoken, Triarius said, ‘I have friends to whom I can refer these questions, and although I might have made some answer myself, still I would rather look to men better equipped than myself.’ ‘I believe you mean our friends Siro and Philodemus, not only excellent men, but men of very great learning. ‘You understand me rightly,’ said he. ‘Agreed, then,’ said I, ‘ but it were fairer that Triarius should give some verdict about our disagreement.’ ‘I reject him on affidavit,’ said Torquatus with a smile, ‘as prejudiced, at all events on this subject, since you handle these topics with some gentleness, while he persecutes us after the fashion of the Stoics.' Then Triarius remarked: ‘At least I shall do so hereafter with greater confidence. For I shall be ready with the doctrines I have just listened to; though I shall not attack you until I see that you have been primed by the friends you mention.' This said, we put an end at once to our walk and our debate.

    Quote from Henry David Thoreau

    The Grecian are youthful and erring and fallen gods, with the vices of men, but in many important respects essentially of the divine race. In my Pantheon, Pan still reigns in his pristine glory, with his ruddy face, his flowing beard, and his shaggy body, his pipe and his crook, his nymph Echo, and his chosen daughter Iambe; for the great god Pan is not dead, as was rumored. No god ever dies. Perhaps of all the gods of New England and of ancient Greece, I am most constant at his shrine.


    It's interesting that while Lucretius records that magnets were so named because they came from Magnesia, Pliny the Elder quotes Nicander of Colophon as suggesting that magnets got their name from a shepherd named Magnes, whose iron studded shoes stuck to the ground on Mount Ida.

    I chose option three.


    As a human (like other animals), I do desire to achieve pleasure and to avoid pain. So of course I will choose the option with no pain. However, if I do end up the same way as Epicurus – dying from bladder stones or something else painful – I may choose instead to accept my impending demise knowing that I have lived a good life. If I can remain as cheerful as Epicurus was in his last days, I probably wouldn't think of any other option.

    Quote from Cassius

    That is a very good follow on question to help articulate the answer to the first and main question: Would Epicurus himself have traded places for the week that is under discussion?

    Assuming that in this hypothetical Epicurus avoids his painful death, I would say no but only because it would allow him to prove that he can still be cheerful despite being in pain, setting an example to his followers. His body may have been in immense pain but his mind wasn't as he was able to remember and reflect on his life, his friends, his philosophical discussions, etc., which gave him pleasure. And of course he knew that he wouldn't have been in immense pain for too long (PD4). Not to mention that he also had people who were capable of tending the Garden after he was gone. Preserving his legacy and teachings for generations to come... until Nature decides to bury a lot of it under ash and lava. Maybe building a town near a volcano isn't a good idea?

    'Friendship dances around the world, bidding us all to awaken to the recognition of happiness.'

    Love 1

    Thanks to all who have answered so far! This is going to provide some great food for thought over at Facebook too. I'll probably wait til the weekend to post it to give more time for consideration.

    It seems that this hypothetical could be made more simple and clear. And there could be multiple ways to do so. For example:


    "Would you rather be Epicurus, living in pain on your deathbed surrounded by friends knowing that you have made great contributions toward understanding the nature of the world and helping others understand it as well"


    or


    "Live your last week on earth pain-free but all alone on a mountain as a shepherd, and then have a very quick death from a sudden heart attack from eating too much sheep cheese, AND leave no legacy."


    The original hypothetical as stated in post 1, sheds light on the natural desire for good health (and why so many picked the shepherd), since the wording of the hypothetical was such that the shepherd was not in pain.


    We cannot control what kind of death we will have, or if we will be surrounded by friends or die alone. AND this question: How much can we control what kind of legacy we leave, since a portion of that process occurs by chance?

    Yes actually I do not see the "death at the end of the week" as being a major factor in making the hypothetical work.


    The intent is generally that of:


    1 - Being Epicurus for a week (with all that that implies) but in pain from kidneystones; vs

    2 - Being a random shepherd for a week who is experiencing no specific pain but knows nothing about philosophy and doing nothing in particular but minding his own business living the live of a shepherd in the mountains .


    Before posting to Facebook I will probably use these descriptions.

    An issue with any hypothetical is trying to exclude all the issues that people with think to add in that are outside the hypothetical. In this case the fact that Epicurus died after his last week needs to be excluded from the terms so that we can focus on the issue of their relative pains and pleasures while alive.


    But also as with any hypothetical, explaining the caveats also helps with the main purpose, which is to get people thinking about the overall question.

    And on the topic of being a student of Epicurus for any time period, here is something I think is related that any student of Epicurus should consider:


    Q: "What is your understanding of Platonic Idealism and Aristotelian Essentialism and how they may or may not relate to Epicurus' view of Pleasure? Does considering that relationship (if any) indicate anything as to how you would answer the question being posed?"

    Quote from Cassius

    And on the topic of being a student of Epicurus for any time period, here is something I think is related that any student of Epicurus should consider:


    Q: "What is your understanding of Platonic Idealism and Aristotelian Essentialism and how they may or may not relate to Epicurus' view of Pleasure? Does considering that relationship (if any) indicate anything as to how you would answer the question being posed?"

    Agreed. Unlike so many Christians, whose understanding of their Savior and the depth of their knowledge of the Christian tradition is self-mistaken for a projection of individual wants and desires and fears based on nothing but their own, personal experiences, and limited educations related to religious history and comparative philosophy, it should be important for us to not believe that we think we understand Epicurus, and mold our understanding to the needs of our own lives, but rather to make a commitment to understand the texts as they are, not as we are.


    And then, when teaching new students, we simplify the teachings to a genuinely accurate (though incomplete) summary.

    Agreed Nate.


    So how would a non-idealist non-essentialist person like Epicurus view discussions where "Pleasure" is compared from one person to another or at different times and places?


    Is there a standard of "pleasure" that exists for everyone that allows an explicit one-to-one comparison?


    We have heard many times that accepting "Pleasure" as a standard turns us into cows (or worse)?


    If that is not the case, why is it not the case?


    Or are we in fact aiming at exactly the same pleasure of a cow grazing in the grass?


    Is one person's "height of pleasure" the same as another person's?

    Quote from Don

    Personally, I think being a student of Epicurus for a week, even his last week, is more intriguing than "being" Epicurus himself.

    Which leads me to ask if a more difficult question would be:

    You can travel back in time for one week (and you're able to understand and read the language, have all the proper inoculations, etc.) for a specifically Epicurean excursion. When and where do you go?

    Do you spend a week:

    - sitting with Epicurus as a child, badgering his teachers about the origins of Chaos

    - learning with Epicurus in Lampsacus at the beginning of his philosophical work

    - traveling with Epicurus when he was getting kicked out of Mytilene

    - being with Epicurus during the last week of his life

    - in Athens meeting with Cicero and Atticus and visiting the Garden, Academy, etc.

    - visiting the Villa of the Papyri, reading in the library, and attending a 20th with Philodemus and Piso


    PS. I'm intentionally leaving out spending a week living in the Garden and house with Epicurus in his prime, in the mature school surrounded by students. That'd be the easy choice for me.

    For me that one is easier I think - I would want to be able to question Epicurus in his most mature and advanced stage of life, so I would say "being with Epicurus during the last week of his life" to ask him where he eventually came down on many of these same issues we are discussing.


    And i would probably include the exact question we are discussing from post one of this thread.

    Quote from Cassius

    For me that one is easier I think - I would want to be able to question Epicurus in his most mature and advanced stage of life, so I would say "being with Epicurus during the last week of his life" to ask him where he eventually came down on many of these same issues we are discussing.


    And i would probably include the exact question we are discussing from post one of this thread.

    Ah! But how readily available would he be available that last week? How open to questions? How bedridden and in pain would be be? How much wine was he drinking to dull the pain? I can come up with all kinds of complications! ^^

    An interesting aspect of Don's question is that it points out to me that it is more important to know "the truth" of what Epicurus was talking about than to think that I already know what the "most pleasant" of those alternative weeks would be.


    I do not think that I (speaking only for me) have an adequate grasp of what Epicurus was really advising to presume that 'it would be more fun to be with Epicurus in the good times' is the right answer.


    It might be more "fun" or even 'pleasant" to be with him in some of the earlier times, but i would want to know his mature thoughts or else i would not be so sure I had made the correct choice.