What if Kyriai Doxai was NOT a list?

  • Okay, this is a "quick and dirty" experiment in "What if Kyriai Doxai was not written as a list?" I'm using the Hicks text available at Perseus Digital Library and simply taking the "list" of 40 "principal doctrines" and combining them into (somewhat) coherent sections with no breaks for line numbers. Just as an experiment... which on a number of levels seems to work. I find the sections hang together pretty well and the sections seem to me to elucidate the topics being covered. I also see call backs to other sections. Some of the "solitary" doctrines seem almost out of place, which makes me curious if the extant manuscripts all follow the same "order"... Memory serves me that they don't. Which further makes me wonder if the book got re-arranged somehow and then got ossified into the "order" we have now. MUCH more research has to be done, manuscripts need to be examined, etc.,.. but, here, for your enjoyment and consideration is a POSSIBLE version of Epicurus's work entitle Kyriai Doxai:


    Kyriai Doxai of Epicurus


    A blessed and eternal being has no trouble himself and brings no trouble upon any other being ; hence he is exempt from movements of anger and partiality, for every such movement implies weakness.*


    Death is nothing to us; for the body, when it has been resolved into its elements, has no feeling, and that which has no feeling is nothing to us.


    The magnitude of pleasure reaches its limit in the removal of all pain. When pleasure is present, so long as it is uninterrupted, there is no pain either of body or of mind or of both together. 4. Continuous pain does not last long in the flesh ; on the contrary, pain, if extreme, is present a very short time, and even that degree of pain which barely outweighs pleasure in the flesh does not last for many days together. Illnesses of long duration even permit of an excess of pleasure over pain in the flesh.


    It is impossible to live a pleasant life without living wisely and well and justly, and it is impossible to live wisely and well and justly without living pleasantly. Whenever any one of these is lacking, when, for instance, the man is not able to live wisely, though he lives well and justly, it is impossible for him to live a pleasant life.


    In order to obtain security from other men any means whatsoever of procuring this was a natural good. Some men have sought to become famous and renowned, thinking that thus they would make themselves secure against their fellow-men. If, then, the life of such persons really was secure, they attained natural good ; if, however, it was insecure, they have not attained the end which by nature's own prompting they originally sought.


    No pleasure is in itself evil, but the things which produce certain pleasures entail annoyances many times greater than the pleasures themselves. If all pleasure had been capable of accumulation,--if this had gone on not only by recurrence in time, but all over the frame or, at any rate, over the principal parts of man's nature, there would never have been any difference between one pleasure and another, as in fact there is. If the objects which are productive of pleasures to profligate persons really freed them from fears of the mind,--the fears, I mean, inspired by celestial and atmospheric phenomena, the fear of death, the fear of pain ; if, further, they taught them to limit their desires, we should never have any fault to find with such persons, for they would then be filled with pleasures to overflowing on all sides and would be exempt from all pain, whether of body or mind, that is, from all evil. If we had never been molested by alarms at celestial and atmospheric phenomena, nor by the misgiving that death somehow affects us, nor by neglect of the proper limits of pains and desires, we should have had no need to study natural science. It would be impossible to banish fear on matters of the highest importance, if a man did not know the nature of the whole universe, but lived in dread of what the legends tell us. Hence without the study of nature there was no enjoyment of unmixed pleasures. There would be no advantage in providing security against our fellow-men, so long as we were alarmed by occurrences over our heads or beneath the earth or in general by whatever happens in the boundless universe. When tolerable security against our fellow-men is attained, then on a basis of power sufficient to afford support140and of material prosperity arises in most genuine form the security of a quiet private life withdrawn from the multitude.


    Nature's wealth at once has its bounds and is easy to procure ; but the wealth of vain fancies recedes to an infinite distance.


    Fortune but seldom interferes with the wise man ; his greatest and highest interests have been, are, and will be, directed by reason throughout the course of his life.


    The just man enjoys the greatest peace of mind, while the unjust is full of the utmost disquietude.


    Pleasure in the flesh admits no increase when once the pain of want has been removed ; after that it only admits of variation. The limit of pleasure in the mind, however, is reached when we reflect on the things themselves and their congeners which cause the mind the greatest alarms. Unlimited time and limited time afford an equal amount of pleasure, if we measure the limits of that pleasure by reason. The flesh receives as unlimited the limits of pleasure ; and to provide it requires unlimited time. But the mind, grasping in thought what the end and limit of the flesh is, and banishing the terrors of futurity, procures a complete and perfect life, and has no longer any need of unlimited time. Nevertheless it does not shun pleasure, and even in the hour of death, when ushered out of existence by circumstances, the mind does not lack enjoyment of the best life. He who understands the limits of life knows how easy it is to procure enough to remove the pain of want and make the whole of life complete and perfect. Hence he has no longer any need of things which are not to be won save by labour and conflict.


    We must take into account as the end all that really exists and all clear evidence of sense to which we refer our opinions ; for otherwise everything will be full of uncertainty and confusion. If you fight against all your sensations, you will have no standard to which to refer, and thus no means of judging even those judgements which you pronounce false. If you reject absolutely any single sensation without stopping to discriminate with respect to that which awaits confirmation between matter of opinion and that which is already present, whether in sensation or in feelings or in any presentative perception of the mind, you will throw into confusion even the rest of your sensations by your groundless belief and so you will be rejecting the standard of truth altogether. If in your ideas based upon opinion you hastily affirm as true all that awaits confirmation as well as that which does not, you will not escape error, as you will be maintaining complete ambiguity whenever it is a case of judging between right and wrong opinion. If you do not on every separate occasion refer each of your actions to the end prescribed by nature, but instead of this in the act of choice or avoidance swerve aside to some other end, your acts will not be consistent with your theories.


    All such desires as lead to no pain when they remain ungratified are unnecessary, and the longing is easily got rid of, when the thing desired is difficult to procure or when the desires seem likely to produce harm.


    Of all the means which are procured by wisdom to ensure happiness throughout the whole of life, by far the most important is the acquisition of friends. The same conviction which inspires confidence that nothing we have to fear is eternal or even of long duration, also enables us to see that even in our limited conditions of life nothing enhances our security so much as friendship.


    Of our desires some are natural and necessary ; others are natural, but not necessary ; others, again, are neither natural nor necessary, but are due to illusory opinion.** Those natural desires which entail no pain when not gratified, though their objects are vehemently pursued, are also due to illusory opinion ; and when they are not got rid of, it is not because of their own nature, but because of the man's illusory opinion.


    Natural justice is a symbol or expression of expediency, to prevent one man from harming or being harmed by another. Those animals which are incapable of making covenants with one another, to the end that they may neither inflict nor suffer harm, are without either justice or injustice. And those tribes which either could not or would not form mutual covenants to the same end are in like case. There never was an absolute justice, but only an agreement made in reciprocal intercourse in whatever localities now and again from time to time, providing against the infliction or suffering of harm. Injustice is not in itself an evil, but only in its consequence, viz. the terror which is excited by apprehension that those appointed to punish such offences will discover the injustice. It is impossible for the man who secretly violates any article of the social compact to feel confident that he will remain undiscovered, even if he has already escaped ten thousand times ; for right on to the end of his life he is never sure he will not be detected. Taken generally, justice is the same for all, to wit, something found expedient in mutual intercourse ; but in its application to particular cases of locality or conditions of whatever kind, it varies under different circumstances. Among the things accounted just by conventional law, whatever in the needs of mutual intercourse is attested to be expedient, is thereby stamped as just, whether or not it be the same for all ; and in case any law is made and does not prove suitable to the expediencies of mutual intercourse, then this is no longer just. And should the expediency which is expressed by the law vary and only for a time correspond with the prior conception, nevertheless for the time being it was just, so long as we do not trouble ourselves about empty words, but look simply at the facts. Where without any change in circumstances the conventional laws, when judged by their consequences, were seen not to correspond with the notion of justice, such laws were not really just ; but wherever the laws have ceased to be expedient in consequence of a change in circumstances, in that case the laws were for the time being just when they were expedient for the mutual intercourse of the citizens, and subsequently ceased to be just when they ceased to be expedient.


    He who best knew how to meet fear of external foes made into one family all the creatures he could ; and those he could not, he at any rate did not treat as aliens ; and where he found even this impossible, he avoided all intercourse, and, so far as was expedient, kept them at a distance. Those who were best able to provide themselves with the means of security against their neighbours, being thus in possession of the surest guarantee, passed the most agreeable life in each other's society ; and their enjoyment of the fullest intimacy was such that, if one of them died before his time, the survivors did not lament his death as if it called for commiseration.


    * Elsewhere he says that the gods are discernible by reason alone, some being numerically distinct, while others result uniformly from the continuous influx of similar images directed to the same spot and in human form.--Schol.


    **Epicurus regards as natural and necessary desires which bring relief from pain, as e.g. drink when we are thirsty ; while by natural and not necessary he means those which merely diversify the pleasure without removing the pain, as e.g. costly viands ; by the neither natural nor necessary he means desires for crowns and the erection of statues in one's honour.--Schol.

  • Don are there any markings or other reasons for the paragraph divisions, or are those done solely by judgment as to topic change?

    Oh, those are merely where I thought the topic changed!

    As I mentioned, this is ONLY a VERY quick and dirty experiment at this point.

    I merely copied and pasted Hicks' text, took out the numbers, went through and combined similar topics (to my briefly considered satisfaction), copied that, and pasted it here. No real scholarship or research of any kind!

    That said, several of the sections hold together quite well even using this slapdash technique for the time being.

  • My primary reason for posting this little experiment is to simply elicit thoughts - using this admittedly brute force method at its most basic - on whether the idea that Kyriai Doxai could have been more prose than list deserves more attention.... Or have I been barking up the wrong tree this whole time!

    If the feedback is generally that this prose theory seems to maybe have some merit, I'll maybe go off digging into the manuscripts etc (after I finish that menoikeus revision ^^ )

    If the consensus is that the "prose" idea adds no real value overall to the "list", I'll dial back my enthusiasm for that idea.

  • I think that the prose idea is definitely worth pursuing! It seems to me that this adds a degree of clarity to understanding the PDs (KDs?) that is sometimes hard to find with them split into a neat little list of 40. :thumbup: :thumbup:

  • I wouldn't dispense with the list altogether, it's too historically ingrained. But a prose version in parallel is definitely worthwhile.


    I'd actually be curious to know what a trained classicist with no knowledge of the text would do with it if you handed them a lump of Greek capital letters with no numbering or paragraphs. But of course the first thing they would likely do is consult earlier scholarship.

  • I wouldn't dispense with the list altogether, it's too historically ingrained. But a prose version in parallel is definitely worthwhile.

    I actually like Cassius 's idea of using superscript "verse" numbers in a prose format. "Chapters " could be topics.

    So, we'd have Principle Doctrines 3:2 for example ^^

  • I wouldn't dispense with the list altogether, it's too historically ingrained. But a prose version in parallel is definitely worthwhile.

    I actually like Cassius 's idea of using superscript "verse" numbers in a prose format. "Chapters " could be topics.

    So, we'd have Principle Doctrines 3:2 for example ^^

    (I) RESPONSE

    [
    1] Once (down the road) I feel satisfied with my translations, [2] I'd like to put them in a form that we might find in the Bible, [3] like Cassius said in another post that I cannot find at the moment. [4] I documented it here, to demonstrate.

  • Okay, I've posted my Menoikeus update. So now it's off to Kyriai Doxai. I've printed out the appropriate pages of codex Laurentianus Plut.69.35 - written 1101-1200 CE (12 century CE) and I want to start going through and checking order, punctuation, etc. Fun!! ^^ :thumbup: (no sarcasm intended btw)

  • from what manuscript are you working?

    codex Laurentianus Plut.69.35 - written 1101-1200 CE (12 century CE)

    http://mss.bmlonline.it/s.aspx?Id=AWOItZA2I1A4r7GxMME1&c=Laertius%20Diogenes#/oro/496

    Principal Doctrines start on folio 243v, 10 lines from the bottom on the left side.

    The oldest I could find.

    And is there more than one which we can compare?

    Oh, yeah. There are at least 3 more I want to look at that have no numbers. Plus there are the Latin translations. I've only just started!

  • Okay, made first pass through 2nd manuscript: codex Parisinus gr. 1759 (14th c.) known as P. Some very interesting marks and abbreviations and ligatures. Some similarities with Pluto.69.35 and some differences.

    I want to get through a 3rd manuscript before I start sharing any specific observations or possible structures.

    I must say I continue to find it amazing I - or anyone! - can peruse these manuscripts online. It is humbling and exhilarating at the same time.

    Stay tuned y'all. Thanks for your patience... And continued interest (I hope :) ).

    Edit:

    I've also put on hold my copying of the Vatican Sayings into their respective threads. Kuriai Doxai is a much more self-contained text so I'm concentrating on that for now.

  • Okay, after going through three manuscripts:

    • Plut.69.35 (12 c.)
    • Parisinus gr. 1759 (14th c.)
    • Grec. 1758 (1401-1500)

    I have the following VERY preliminary, conservative proposal to make. The only thing this post looks at is where the 3 texts agree in NOT putting an interpunct (dot - signifying a full stop or full breath) between what are usually individual "Principal Doctrines." I purposefully did NOT try to remember what each of the PDs were, so the text didn't sway me on "Is that a dot or not?" All three manuscripts appear to NOT place a dot:

    • EDIT: between 5 & 6 (Plut..69.35 places a comma)
    • between 10 & 11 (Plut.69.35 places a comma)
    • between 12 & 13 (every manuscript started a new line with 13 with no dot after 12)
    • between 15 & 16 (Plut.69.35 places a comma)
    • between 16 & 17
    • between 18 & 19 (gr.1759 is inconclusive but does not appear to have a dot)

    There are other sections worth looking at, but here are those non-dotted PDs listed above for your consideration, using Hicks for the quick-n-dirty translation.


    (5 & 6) It is impossible to live a pleasant life without living wisely and well and justly, and it is impossible to live wisely and well and justly without living pleasantly. Whenever any one of these is lacking, when, for instance, the man is not able to live wisely, though he lives well and justly, it is impossible for him to live a pleasant life. In order to obtain security from other men any means whatsoever of procuring this was a natural good.


    (10 & 11) If the objects which are productive of pleasures to profligate persons really freed them from fears of the mind,--the fears, I mean, inspired by celestial and atmospheric phenomena, the fear of death, the fear of pain ; if, further, they taught them to limit their desires, we should never have any fault to find with such persons, for they would then be filled with pleasures to overflowing on all sides and would be exempt from all pain, whether of body or mind, that is, from all evil. If we had never been molested by alarms at celestial and atmospheric phenomena, nor by the misgiving that death somehow affects us, nor by neglect of the proper limits of pains and desires, we should have had no need to study natural science.


    (12 & 13) It would be impossible to banish fear on matters of the highest importance, if a man did not know the nature of the whole universe, but lived in dread of what the legends tell us. Hence without the study of nature there was no enjoyment of unmixed pleasures. There would be no advantage in providing security against our fellow-men, so long as we were alarmed by occurrences over our heads or beneath the earth or in general by whatever happens in the boundless universe.


    (15 & 16 & 17) Nature's wealth at once has its bounds and is easy to procure ; but the wealth of vain fancies recedes to an infinite distance. Fortune but seldom interferes with the wise man ; his greatest and highest interests have been, are, and will be, directed by reason throughout the course of his life. The just man enjoys the greatest peace of mind, while the unjust is full of the utmost disquietude.


    (18 & 19) Pleasure in the flesh admits no increase when once the pain of want has been removed ; after that it only admits of variation. The limit of pleasure in the mind, however, is reached when we reflect on the things themselves and their congeners which cause the mind the greatest alarms. Unlimited time and limited time afford an equal amount of pleasure, if we measure the limits of that pleasure by reason.


    There are other idiosyncracies of the manuscripts that I want to explore, but figured I'd share this since ya'll have been patient. There are also instances where two manuscripts will lack a dot "between" PDs but not the third. There are some gaps, other marks, other things to consider. But those above seem to hang together, done better than others admittedly.


    EDIT: And this also doesn't take into consideration different forms of words, missing lines or different phrasing.

  • You've undertaken quite a sleuthing project Don !


    Pondering the data from a current, English-speaking perspective that is ignorant of Greek (mine):

    - Interesting that 6 and 7 have a dot between them as they seem to address the same subject. Why a dot there, but not between 5 and 6?

    - Why between 11 and 12, but not between 10 and 11 or 12 and 13? I would tend to combine all four.

    - I considered the individual PDs as we now have them, so I'm just beginning where Don left off.


    The above post seems to make this project even more difficult than it appeared before! The red dot is the logical (maybe the only!) place to start this quest, but as I understand it all of these manuscripts were created over 1,000 years after Epicurus' death. I'm curious if those who wrote these manuscripts had a different use for the red dots than separating individual PDs. Might it be an attempt to split up a continuous text into equal chunks, regardless of meaning?


    Having never heard of an interpunct, of course I went to: Interpunct - Wikipedia. From that article:

    Quote

    Greek: "The Hellenistic scholars of Alexandria first developed the mark for a function closer to the comma, before it fell out of use and was then repurposed for its present role.[8]"


    Latin: "The interpunct (interpunctus) was regularly used in classical Latin to separate words. In addition to the most common round form, inscriptions sometimes use a small equilateral triangle for the interpunct, pointing either up or down. It may also appear as a mid-line comma, similar to the Greek practice of the time. The interpunct fell out of use c. 200 CE, and Latin was then written scripta continua for several centuries."

    Does this open up the red dots to any different interpretation?

  • You've undertaken quite a sleuthing project Don !

    ^^ Tell me about it! LOL!

    Pondering the data from a current, English-speaking perspective that is ignorant of Greek (mine):

    - Interesting that 6 and 7 have a dot between them as they seem to address the same subject. Why a dot there, but not between 5 and 6?

    - Why between 11 and 12, but not between 10 and 11 or 12 and 13? I would tend to combine all four.

    Your questions are VERY good ones, and may very well come to light with other punctuation, spacing, etc. issues that come later. I generally agree with your assessments btw.

    red dots

    Oh, the ones I'm looking at are not red. They're the same color as the rest of the ink (at least on the ones scans that are color; grec.1758 is in b&w. The red color was used on the initial letters of the Vatican Sayings. Here's an example of what I'm talking about from grec. 1758...

    • The top arrow points to the space (NO interpunct... and I think I'm using the word correctly ^^ ) at the end of PD3 (συναμφότερον) leading right into PD4 (Οὐ χρονίζει τὸ...).
    • The first arrow pointing up from the bottom points to a comma after the ακρον, ("height, summit") of PD4.
    • The right arrow pointing up from the bottom points to the "interpunct" after πάρεστι, ι in PD4 which Hicks transliterates as a comma.

    SO, unfortunately, the interpunct symbol could do multiple duties...evidently depending on the whims of the scribe!! So, some of your intuitions, Godfrey, could be correct. My initial post there is literally a blunt force attempt at a start. LOL. Only a start! (Shields eyes from the sun... heads back into the scriptorium)

  • Don


    What if I am not a list?


    Okay, couldn’t help myself: just my mood today.


    +++++++


    With that crass distraction tossed in the trash, I’d point out that the original Hebrew texts of the Bible had no verse numbers, no line breaks, no sentence breaks – and more often than not, no word breaks (and no determinate vowels before the Masoretes’ inventions between the 7th and 10th centuries C.E.). That is what makes classical Hebrew such a radically polysemous language, which guided the highly hermeneutical approach of the Talmuds and subsequent rabbinical Judaisms (many rabbis at the time objected to the Masoretes’ project as arbitrarily limiting interpretation).


    [Oh, and far more of the Hebrew Scriptures (the Tanach) is actually poetry than is often recognized.]


    The same can be said for the earliest Koine Greek of the New Testament. Such things as verse numbers (which can far too often – in my opinion – be quoted without attention to larger context) – and even phrase breaks – were later (interpretive) additions.


    And so, I think you may well be onto something here ... (Do we know the historical development of these texts? I had thought not.)

    "We must try to make the end of the journey better than the beginning, as long as we are journeying; but when we come to the end, we must be happy and content." (Vatican Saying 48)

    Edited once, last by Pacatus ().

  • (Do we know the historical development of these texts? I had thought not.)

    As far as I know, "details" are sketchy at best. There is such a gap between Epicurus and Diogenes Laertius (lived after 200 CE), but I *think* there are other mentions of either the book title Kyriai Doxai or individual quotes from the book in earlier authors. Lucian of Samasota (c. 125 – after 180 CE) mentions them in Alexander the Oracle Monger...

    Quote from Lucian

    In this connection Alexander once made himself supremely ridiculous. Coming across Epicurus’ Accepted Maxims (Ἐπικούρου κυρίας δόξας, Epikourou kyrias doxas), the most admirable of his books, as you know, with its terse presentment of his wise conclusions, he brought it into the middle of the market-place, there burned it on a fig-wood fire for the sins of its author, and cast its ashes into the sea. He issued an oracle on the occasion: “The dotard’s maxims to the flames be given.” The fellow had no conception of the blessings conferred by that book upon its readers, of the peace, tranquility, and independence of mind it produces, of the protection it gives against terrors, phantoms, and marvels, vain hopes and insubordinate desires, of the judgment and candor that it fosters, or of its true purging of the spirit, not with torches and squills and such rubbish, but with right reason, truth, and frankness.

    Edit:

    Philodemus (c. 110 – prob. c. 40/35 BCE) mentions Kyriai Doxai as well. He mentions it by title and refers to / quotes KD/PD1 in On Anger, 43:14-41.

    We then at least have a trail that leads from Epicurus to Laertius:

    Epicurus 341–270 BC

    Philodemus (c. 110 – prob. c. 40/35 BCE)

    Lucian of Samasota (c. 125 – after 180 CE)

    Diogenes Laertius (fl. after 200 CE)

  • I wondered whether Lucian's text gave an idea if "Accepted Maxims" description would give us an idea of whether it was in discrete, listed items (like we have now) or more summary or epitome.

    Lucian's text reads:

    εὑρὼν γὰρ τὰς Ἐπικούρου κυρίας δόξας, τὸ κάλλιστον, ὡς οἶσθα, τῶν βιβλίων καὶ κεφαλαιώδη περιέχον τῆς τἀνδρὸς σοφίας τὰ δόγματα,...

    • τὰς Ἐπικούρου κυρίας δόξας = Epicurus's "Accepted Maxims" (as the translation goes)
    • τὸ κάλλιστον, ὡς οἶσθα, τῶν βιβλίων = the greatest, the most noble, the most beautiful, etc. of books (κάλλιστον is the superlative of καλός "beautiful, noble, etc."). Lucian doesn't seem to say "of 'his' (i.e., Epicurus's) books" but just seems to say "of books", as in all books.
    • καὶ κεφαλαιώδη περιέχον τῆς τἀνδρὸς σοφίας τὰ δόγματα "and a summary that encompasses the doctrines of The Man's wisdom"
      • κεφαλαιώδη This is the key word which means the principal or capital but also summary.
        • Arist.Rh.1415b8 uses it: there is no need of an exordium, except just to make a summary statement of the subject, so that, like a body, it may have a head.
        • Arist. Metaph.988a18 uses it: We have given only a concise and summary account of those thinkers who have expressed views about the causes 988a.20and reality, and of their doctrines.

    I see nothing to suggest Lucian saw it as a list per se but just a summary text. Just to be clear, I'm not maintaining that Kyriai Doxai read beginning to end like a treatise. It was obviously a summary. However, we do a great disservice to the text by seeing the "maxims" as discrete entities. My goal is to connect what needs to be connected, to let stand alone what needs or is intended to stand alone. My primary position is that the numbered list has corrupted our understanding of the text that, according to Lucian, is the most noble of books.