Dopamine Nation by Dr. Anna Lembke

    Quote from Cassius

    Maybe our lexicon or FAQ ought to include a list of actual or probable Epicurean "idioms"

    If we're going that route, my suggestion would be to have an entry for "Empty" Desires and then make a point of saying "this is the word Epicurus used to describe desires which..." I don't think we should shy away from his modifier but understand it may need some context. I maintain it's a good word and gets at the unsatisfying nature of the empty desires, like "empty" calories, empty handed, empty headed, etc.

    To circle back to the topic of this thread, addictions are not predicated on empty desires. It would seem to me that most addictions start out as natural but unnecessary desires. In fact, I would posit that most of our everyday desires fall into the "natural but not necessary" category, but they do add variety to our lives.

    Quote from Don

    In fact, I would posit that most of our everyday desires fall into the "natural but not necessary" category, but they do add variety to our lives

    Yes and the highlights another peril - that if thinking that "natural but not necessary" desires as a rule should not be pursued because they are not "necessary." Such a general rule would not in my opinion by Epicurean, but Stoic/ascetic.

    And I don't think any (or many) people here would infer such a rule, because we hit on that point so hard here in this forum. But in the outside world of people who read Epicurus I think that's a very real problem. They infer that Epicurus suggested we should pursue ONLY natural and necessary desires, even though he himself manifestly did not do that in his own case, nor would it be logical to reach such a conclusion in the first place given the rest of his philosophy.

    And if someone wants to argue that point (which they often do in outside Epicurean discussions) I would ask them among many other things: Exactly how many of the slaves which Epicurus held at his death were "necessary?"

    I find it interesting that Epicurus didn't actually use the word "unnecessary" although one could argue it's implied. But it is not explicit:

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    Furthermore, on the one hand, there are the natural desires; on the other, the 'empty, fruitless, or vain ones.' And of the natural ones, on the one hand, are the necessary ones; on the other, the ones which are only natural; then, of the necessary ones: on the one hand, those necessary for eudaimonia; then, those necessary for the freedom from disturbance for the body; then those necessary for life itself.

    Unless he talked about the division of desires somewhere else and used "unnecessary" explicitly. I certainly don't have the texts memorized :)

    Great point. I know that in general discussion (such as below) that shorthand is used, but maybe the texts don't really justify it?

    PD26. Of desires, all that do not lead to a sense of pain, if they are not satisfied, are not necessary, but involve a craving which is easily dispelled when the object is hard to procure, or they seem likely to produce harm.

    PD29. Among desires, some are natural (and necessary, some natural) but not necessary, and others neither natural nor necessary, but due to idle imagination.

    Ah! The phrase used in those is οὐκ εἰσὶν ἀναγκαῖαι "they are not necessary." So, the word unnecessary isn't there, but it is explicitly said "they are not necessary." Mea culpa.

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    Furthermore, on the one hand, there are the natural desires; on the other, the 'empty, fruitless, or vain ones.' And of the natural ones, on the one hand, are the necessary ones; on the other, the ones which are only natural; then, of the necessary ones: on the one hand, those necessary for eudaimonia; then, those necessary for the freedom from disturbance for the body; then those necessary for life itself

    If you visualize this as a flowchart...this shows that there are three catagories underneath both "natural and necessary":

    1) necessary for eudaimonia

    2) necessary for freedom from disturbance for the body

    3) necessary for life itself

    So "necessary for eudaimonia" could encompass a great number of things (things such as friendship...and you could then go as far as including such things a "sexual expression" as necessary for happiness -and- freedom from disturbance of the body).

    I feel certain that back in time, this was much more clearly and exactly explained in Epicurus' teachings, but so much of the written teachings didn't survive. Is there anything in Epicurus' writings where we can gain more detail about what is "necessary for eudaimonia"?

    Maybe the only way through all of this is to apply common sense and to "scientifically" test it and to make a list of things, and decide which of the three catagories we think they might fall into.

    I just happened upon this thread, and thought it might be good to cross reference it here, as it tells a story about addiction and it's consequences, and also gives some Epicurean principles and potential wisdom to help anyone who might be dealing with addiction or who knows someone dealing with addiction. (Addiction is a very complex issue, and may of course need the help of an addiction counselor or therapist).

    Thread

    “Love and Marriage, Real Series”

    Selection_999(680).jpg Although we are now forced to devote much of our attention to the nature of viruses, and how to prevent or defeat the pain that comes from them, we should also keep in mind the nature of pleasure, the goal for which we endure the possibility viruses and all other kinds of pain.

    Just as we study the details of how viruses operate, and how we can minimize our danger from them, we should remember too that pleasure operates through natural mechanisms, and we should study the…
    Elli
    March 30, 2020 at 12:02 PM

    I recall that Haris Dimitriadis wrote in his book about neurotransmitters and chemical responses underlying pleasure/happiness. Here is a visual that I found along the way:

    "We must try to make the end of the journey better than the beginning, as long as we are journeying; but when we come to the end, we must be happy and content." (Vatican Saying 48)